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Hogs
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 05:34 pm: | 
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Etennuly,
Hows it going, I wdn`t mind to get a photo of that bad wire in Question,If ya wdn`t mind could Ya email it to be as well, Or perhaps ya could also post it here, Then all can see, Would be good for all to check theres out ,Ya know what I mean
Thanks |
Syscrush
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 06:08 pm: |
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"Thanks for the feedback. I'm convinced it's a simple wiring issue that just hasn't been discovered yet. Unfortunately, I'm a Coder, not a Wrencher."
That makes you officially 100x more qualified to fix this problem than 90% of dealership mechanics.
Either get a nearby hobbyist from this board to come over with some tools and help you, or get that bike to an auto electric specialist. Taking it back to the same dealer again and again when they've proven that they can't or just won't fix the problem is crazy.
How can the customer service dep't refuse to let you escalate the call? If you call up and insist on talking to a manager, how can they refuse?
Good luck,
Phil. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 06:54 pm: |
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Either get a nearby hobbyist from this board to come over with some tools and help you, or get that bike to an auto electric specialist. Taking it back to the same dealer again and again when they've proven that they can't or just won't fix the problem is crazy
I do auto/truck diagnostic stuff for a living. I found my problem out of desperation and luck. That is how most of these phantom electrical problems are found. I think if you were a technician and you got paid to repair the problem, but you might only be paid a couple tenths of an hour to diagnose it, you might have a hard time going out on a two or three hour ride with less than a 50% chance of having the problem pop up. You might face a half dozen of these issues a week. They don't throw a code, they aren't visually obvious, and they are momentary so they are not traceable with normal wire diagnostic tools.
That is why I didn't take mine back in while it was still under warranty, I couldn't make it do it under test conditions. I knew that they would have the bike a week with no results. Kinda sucks, but life ain't warranteed to be easy. You have to be able to find it to fix it.
That is what is great about this BadWeB. |
D3r3k
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 07:12 pm: |
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Etennuly,
It sounds like yours was doing exactly what mine is doing. If I role off the throttle it goes away, but as soon as I get back up to 70+ it starts again. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 07:32 pm: |
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I sent Court some pics. I cannot post them here(its me).
Check dark blue/orange stripe wire. #2 coil/ECM lead. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 08:25 pm: |
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Court read the if lemon law does not apply part |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 07:45 am: |
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Got the photos - will go through them today and take a look.
Thanks. |
D3r3k
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 08:58 am: |
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I did have a BadWeb member look at the bike. He said he inspected all the wires that didn't have any covering, other than their own insulation, and nothing rubed through. |
Gemini
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 09:42 am: |
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as a couple people said, it sounds almost like over temp mode. get a laptop and ecmspy and do a datalog and monitor the engine temp sensor as well as the other sensors. blindly looking for a wiring problem is just that.........blind. i doubt that harley dealers have a setup to do a datalog. since you can get it to happen on long trips, do along trip and save the data. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 03:51 pm: |
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I wouldn't be doing the ECMspy thing yet. Maybe the shop guys can't do a history but the factory people would have. If it was in the history, as a sensor failure, it would have showed up. Nearly all the sensor are grounded by the ECM so I don't think we're looking for that. (I know it's more tech than that, forgive me.)
I think it's going to turn out to be something stupid, like the seat weight thing.
Look for all the grounds that go to the body from the ignition (key) circuit. |
Gemini
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 04:26 pm: |
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i disagree. and here is why. a check engine light will flash if it is skip spark mode due to high temp but will not set a code, active or stored in history. you will only get acode set for teh engine temp sensor if it is out of acceptible range. i don't know the exact voltage or temp for this bike but for example, if the actual engine temp was 200'c and the temp sensor read 280'c adn teh limit was 350'c for a code, you will have a problem with the bike that can cause it to go into over temp mode and not set a code and by slowing down from 70mph, the bike cools down enough for the problem to go away.
i work on modern cars for a living. i have had to learn to think like an engineer sometimes when diagnosing a car. the ecm only sees voltage. it doens' know how hot the engine really is. just what the sensor is telling it. it knows that a voltage of 0V is wrong and a voltage of 5V is wrong. the area in between, it assumes is good info.
he might not even be going into skip spark mode, a datalog will tell you for sure. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:36 pm: |
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That's what I meant by history. You look at the specific sensor and read what signal it sent the ECM for the last period of time. From that you will have an idea of any inconsistent readings. Figure the shop mechanics might not know that, the factory guys will.
So is datalog what I am calling history?
The other issue is this. If it is a ground issue that is not sensor related, it won't show up on the ECM anyway. A faulty ground to the body can trigger the check engine light but not register any problem. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:53 pm: |
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Have you changed the Engine Temperature Sensor? Part #32564-99YC
I went back thru this thread and didn't see that it had been changed. At this point I think I would give it a shot.
If I missed it.... pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..... |
Xbduck
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 01:57 am: |
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I and others here have had the wiring harness rub through just as the harness goes around the top side of the battery box.
My bike would blow a fuse and go dead if I turned on the turn signal. I know this is not the same problem as yours, however if the wires in the harness were rotated just a bit it might be your issue.
I guess I'm telling you that the edge of the battery box could be a spot to look knowing that it was a issue for others.
My thought is your problem is not new, just one someone else has had with a variation. With that said if you knew where to look for the issues you could possibly self diagnose quicker. Less of a hay stack to look in sort of thing. |
Gemini
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 07:46 am: |
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So is datalog what I am calling history?
yes, but that is part of the problem. the ecm by itself only stores data of anytype if it detects a problem. and that data will only be a fault code. it doesn't store data of how the bike was runing. not even the factory can pull that data out of a bike.
if you have a ground problem to the ecm, you might still show problems in all the sensors.......you might not. tuff to say. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 04:25 pm: |
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I admit I don't know ECMspy but I did ask xopti this specific question about the history and he answered in the affirmative.
He said a complete history is available in the data logs.
Page 4, here: http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums/showthread.ph p?t=4515&page=4 |
Gemini
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 04:30 pm: |
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yes, that is correct......in the datalogs. that information is not stored in the ecm. you have to record the data with a laptop or pda(if a pda can do that) while on a test drive when it acts up, then review the datalog.
i know xopti(mike) pretty well. he and i have spent a lot of time using ecmspy and megalogviewer to tune the buells. mike has had the advantage of a little more time to teak and the use of a dyno. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:20 am: |
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So, the info I have is from my mechanic talking about the Nissan black box. I guess it holds the history in it. You're saying the Buell's doesn't have that capability.
Then, yes, a datalog run would be a good idea. It would find or rule out many issues. It might be good to check and see if the factory people already did that.
If they did, I wonder how much pressure would it take to get that info to this group?
Like I said earlier, the video shows the bike is still quite rideable. The more riding done, the more the problem will become apparent.
While I was waiting to set up a datalog run, I would be looking at the Buell wiring diagram, especially, the starting circuit page, and physically check every black wire coming from the relay connectors. |
Id073897
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 12:18 pm: |
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It might be good to check and see if the factory people already did that.
AFAIK the standard Buell tools are capable of holding a 30 seconds log only which has to be triggered manually. If I understood corretcly, they were not capable of reproducing the symptoms, so I assume, that no logs of the event exist.
If any possible get a pda for logging, as then the full dataset is recorded, whereas the PC version currently supports only a subset of data. The information of all sensor data is most valuable for troubleshooting.
Regards,
Gunter |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 12:21 pm: |
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Just as a matter of asking, with the descriptions I have stated above, what would these data recorders shown for my problem? |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 01:11 pm: |
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It could do a number of things of which better techs than I can tell you.
The clearest example would be the temp sensor situation somebody posted above.
If the sensor senses a too hot engine it sends the signal to the ECM. The ECM triggers the flashing engine light and starts skipping the spark to the rear cylinder. It sounds like your issue but you know you weren't going that hot and doesn't fully fit the scenario.
The datalog can show if the sensor is sending faulty signals. So, I don't know the temps so go with me here, 300 is okay, suddenly the sensor sends a signal of 450, the ECM goes into overheat mode and flashy lights and sputtering engine. In the next moment the sensor corrects itself and sends a normal signal and the ECM calms down. A couple of minutes later the whole thing happens again.
A data recorder could show you if that was the case, you could track the reading and look for spikes. You would be able to do that with each sensor. |
Id073897
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 01:24 pm: |
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Just as a matter of asking, with the descriptions I have stated above, what would these data recorders shown for my problem?
The EFI works in a simple manner: garbage in, garbage out. As you get garbage out, it's a matter of logging to discover the garbage in. |
Gemini
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 10:56 am: |
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UPDATE? |
D3r3k
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 03:13 pm: |
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Today I received a phone call from the GM at the dealership where I purchased the bike. He said he would be calling H-D today to see what he could work out, and gave me his cell phone number to follow up with him.
I also received an email from Great Lakes Harley-Davidson & Buell in Bay City, MI. They said they were willing to run it on the dyno to see if they could duplicate the issue and resolve the problem. I appreciate the offer, and depending on what I hear from my local dealer, I might take them up on it.
I also appreciate everyone posting their comments and suggestions. BadWeb drove quite a bit of traffic to my page from all over the globe, and I'm sure that's helping the cause.
www.detroithooligans.com |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 09:25 pm: |
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Like has been said all ready. It sounds like overheat mode as described in the service manual. I assume if it was really overheating you would be able to tell, so the sensor is sending bad info for some reason. Being able to record all the sensors during the problem would really help.
It could also just be a lemon. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 08:26 pm: |
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Moose, that is exactly where I was at when I found my bad wire. It emulated the over-heat run skip exactly. Only thing is, it wasn't overheated.
Reading the SM as to what wire I was dealing with it made perfect sense. #2 coil wire would hang loose enough to short when a little extra heat was applied by the long up hill. That would make the light flash and the engine would skip on that cylinder. Back off the throttle and it would stop. Back under load, does it again.
It was driving me nuts. I got mad and grabbed the wire harness under the seat and pulled up and twisted wires around and it ran fine, for the next 60 miles, then it does it again.
The fifth time I had the seat off on my 400 mile trip, I finally saw the tiny bit of silver showing through the blue/orange wire. I taped it, twisted the wire bundle going into the ECM, and it hasn't done it in 5000 miles.
It did not throw a code. The book theory indicated over-heat, run skip. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 09:43 pm: |
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The fifth time I had the seat off on my 400 mile trip
That must have made the ride uncomfortable, what were you thinking?
Ha. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 01:09 pm: |
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%$^&*$%^#&@#%...... and more! |
D3r3k
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 06:46 pm: |
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After 18 months of jumping through hoops with Harley-Davidson, I'm happy to report the issue has finally been resolved. H-D and American H-D & Buell in Ann Arbor, MI replaced my sputtering '06 XB12Ss with a brand new 1125R at no additional cost. That's excellent customer service.
Thank you to everyone on BadWeb that looked at my page, and offered comments and suggestions. |
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