| Author | Message | ||
     Bud |
Does dyno tuning cover all throttle positions and rpms? yes, we do, and measure front and rear af. only tuning WOT has no sence, the most gain you get and what you want is all the other tps/rpm fields, ( all ready served more than a 100 customers buell's with a very good running, very smooth running, powerfull dyno tuning ) most bikes run so much more efficient, after tuning that even there mpg goes up. my mate Dris ( easyrider ) is doing the dyno tuning, it takes him about 5 to 6 hours to make a fuel map, and he is freaking anal over making it perfect.. and yes you can flash a fuelmap with simmilar exhaust / filter ect. but every bike is different, really !! they are.. Easy has such a good feeling for it now, he can tell by the exhaust / fuel it needs, if your a slow rider of a fast rider, and for a very good exhaust we even have to push up the WOT enrichment. | ||
| Oxygen151 |
So over the winter all my mods will be complete and then it will be time for the ECM changes. By spring I will have the open airbox with K&N done, breather re-route, and my Drummer exhaust on. Will i be better off just purchasing the Race ECM or, getting a tune by Xopti? | ||
| Mmcn49 |
My $.02. An LC-1 controller and WB sensor from Innovate, or a race ECM cost about the same. If you're not going to put in a front header o2 bung and data log yourself, I would install the WB sensor & controller then contact Xopti for a map. Let him know you have the WB sensor so that he can also provide the optimal AFR ratio for the WB when he gives you the map. If your bike runs like mine, unless you install the WB sensor, I don't think you'll be completely satisfied with the changes. | ||
| Oxygen151 |
This is good to know | ||
| Moosestang |
Could we stop all the bickering, please? It's not going to make the bikes run better. I'm constantly trying little changes using ecmspy, but I tend to stick to combining race maps with stock maps from new bikes. If you look at the race maps available on xopti's website and compare them to the stock maps from say the 2007 xb9, you'll see there are noticeable differences in more than the wide open throttle ranges. Just look at the timing maps from the race ecm and the 2007 xb9 stock 2007 xb9 front timing map  Race ecm for xb9 front timing map  Notice how the stock 07 runs more timing at wot in the upper rpms. Seems very odd to me. The 35 degrees at 6000 rpms on the race map is very suspect. The stock map has 38.5 degrees. More timing generally means more power and of course more chance for detonation, but why would a race map have less timing than a stock 07 map? The only thing I can think of is the race map was created before the 07 bikes came out. I wish buell would come out with a new race ecm, i'd like to see their updated maps. If anyone has a 08 or 09 xb9, could you post the fuel and timing maps, please. The rear timing maps are the same way in the above two examples. | ||
| Id073897 |
but why would a race map have less timing than a stock 07 map? Because of the mixture. Spark advance is a function of rpm, load, temperatue and mixture. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
GUNTER SOME PEOPLE WILL NEVER GET IT. THEY ARE TRAINED BY THE AFR ONLY AND NOT THE WHOLE PICTURE. TIMING PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN AFR. THERE IS MANY OTHER FACTORS THATS CONFUSING. NOTE: YOU MATCH UP RPM, TIMING AND FUEL. TO DEVELOP THE BEST MAPS. YOU CAN GET A PERFECT AFR TO YOUR CHOICE. BUT IF TIMING IS NOT AT PEEK PERFORMANCE LEVELS WELL THE NO2 AND CO2 WILL BE OFF. ALL YOU NEED IS A LITTLE OFF AND LESS TQ.HP IS MADE. SECOND BEST IS TO GET A LC1 INSTALLED IN EACH HEADER. GET A 4 GAS ANALYZER THEN DO IT CORRECT THE FIRST TIME. WITH THE LC1 IT GIVES MORE ADJUST ABILITY. EXACTLY WHAT GUNTER SAID. HE IS THE ORIGINAL MAIN MAN AND GURU. WITH OUT HIM . WELL IT WOULD OF NEVER EXISTED AT ALL. EVERY ONE NEEDS TO PRAISE THIS MAN. HE DEVELOPED ECMSPY HIMSELF OTHERS HELPED ALONG. ALL AFTER HE DID THE FIRST DEVELOPMENT. MIKE | ||
| Moosestang |
The fuel maps don't make much sense to me either. stock 07 front  race map front  at 5,000 rpms the difference in fuel is quite significant, but the spark is only different by 1 degree. At 6,000 the difference in fuel isn't much at all and the difference in timing is 3.5 degrees. I realize the 07 runs the different air box (which I have), but other than that the only difference is the race muffler and filter. I'd love to get my bike dyno tuned if someone knows anyone in Florida that dyno tunes buells. At this point I'm not even sure which fuel/timing maps to start off with if I wanted to data log and adjust the tune. I have an 05 with 07 air box, buell race filter and drummer. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
I've had my 98 S1W on the Braggin Rights Dyno. The guy that used to run it had Buells, but I believe he no longer runs it. | ||
| Slaughter |
A word of warning - you have to assume that YOU ARE IN CHARGE of the dyno tuning - NOT the dyno operator. You generally will use the dyno's data system to measure/read/record the air fuel. You will have to be reading air/fuel pretty much in real time and make your adjustments between dyno pulls with the engine idling. You will likely be paying for the dyno by the hour whether you're actually running or are sitting scratching your head wondering how far to adjust a particular rpm/throttle band. Unless you find a tuner who has TUNED a Buell racing motor - race module, ECMSpy, or other - you will have to educate the dyno operator. Trust me, unless the shop takes a personal interest, and unless your map is very close to what you're going to be needing, you can easily spend a full day on the dyno unless you have studied ahead and know how to read the data and make changes in real-time. This is pretty true whether you're using ECMSpy or any other tuning system. Just don't go into a dyno shop and expect them to be able to help you tune your bike if they haven't done this before. It actually is fun but it aint easy the first time. Of course, if you actually have a starting map that is pretty close, that saves a TON of time - but pulling the values up or down as needed can be pretty time consuming. You also have to be monitoring your head temperatures and not let the thing get too hot. The fans in dyno rooms can only go so far to keeping the motor cool. You really have to be considering shutting down when temps get up to 220 C. After just 5 minutes cooling, it's usually ready to start up again. Dyno tuning really IS fun and interesting but unless your map is already really close, you do have to be braced to be spending some time re-mapping. If you're lucky, you can get a map for a similar engine/intake/exhaust and just do a couple pulls with a sniffer in the tailpipe to verify that everything's OK. Gotta run... this is being slammed out without proofreading while waiting for Sunny to end the shower... I'm next and then it's off to the Family get-together for Thanksgiving. Hope I'm making sense with the above... sometimes it comes off as preachy | ||
| Moosestang |
A word of warning - you have to assume that YOU ARE IN CHARGE of the dyno tuning - NOT the dyno operator. That's what i'd like to avoid. I don't know how many points to change in each rpm/tps cell in order to raise or lower the AFR as desired. Then there's the issue of the timing maps.  Wish I had my own dyno. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Hey Moose, they're only 15 Grand or so. If you get one, I'll be happy to invite myself over and visit next summer. There's no doubt dyno tuning probably gives the best tune. If you’re racing, the expense can probably be justified. For a street bike, I think ECMSpy & Mega Log will accomplish everything I’m looking for. You can also use ECMSpy to set the timing anywhere you want. | ||
| Bombardier |
So all the fuel cells are covered whilst dyno tuning? | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
MOOSE DO THIS SAVE THE MONEY. DONT DYNO TUNE. BUY 2 LC1 WIDE BANDS. INSTALL ONE EACH CYL. HOOK THEM UP ONE AT A TIME. SET TO NB OUTPUT. SET THE LC1 AT A 14.7 AFR THEN DATA LOG THE RIDE HOLDING ALL RPM FOR A LITTLE TIME AND MAKE A NEW MAP. KEEP DOING THIS TILL THE MAP VALUES ARE CHANGING LESS THAN 5 MILLI SECONDS EACH. THEN MOVE THE WIRE TO THE OTHER O2 AND RE-PETE. IT WILL TAKE TIME BUT TUNING WITH RESISTANCE ON THE ROAD WHILE RIDING WORKS. ONCE THE FRONT IS SET AND THE REAR IS SET THE FIRST TIME. RE DO IT AGAIN ON THE REAR FOLLOWED BY THE FRONT. AS THINGS DO CHANGE EACH TIME THE OTHER CYL IS ADJUSTED. I WOULDN'T MESS WITH TIMING TILL YOU FULLY GET THE FUELING 100% UNDERSTOOD. THEN VENTURE OFF INTO OTHER AREAS. SMALL CHANGES WORK BETTER ANYWAY BUT YOU WILL SEE HOW MUCH MORE FUEL THE ECM ACTUALLY ASK FOR IN THE END OVER THE STOCK DATA. YOUR MAPS ARE STILL LOW ON FUEL IN THE MID AREA AND WELL AS ACCELERATION ZONES6,7,8 NOTE DONT OVER GEAR THE BIKE IN THE RPM. MEANING DONT BE RIDING IN 5TH AT 1500 RPM AND TAKE IT WOT. IT WILL BOG. I SEE TO MANY PEOPLE DOING THIS. USE THE GEARS JUST LIKE YOU WOULD WHILE RIDING RACING AND ECT. IF YOU BOG IT IN A GEAR IT WILL GIVE FALSE READINGS AND PLAY CATCHUP. REMEMBER SMOOTH IS FAST. RUN THE MEGA LOG ON HARD CHANGES ONLY. IF YOU LOG WITH THE NB GO SLOW THEY READ SLOW. YOU CAN CHANGE THE READ COUNTS IN THE ECM TO 50 FROM STOCK 25/30 THEN THERE IS NO GAPS. ITS NOT THE BEST BUT MUCH BETTER THAN STOCK IF YOU CANT GET THE LC1 UNITS. MIKE | ||
| Mmcn49 |
Mike - Today I'm pulling the headers off to have an o2 bung welded in the front pipe. I planned on buying 1, LC-1 controller and 2, WB sensors, so I wouldn't have to keep swapping the sensor from front to rear. Is there a way to power-up the WB's heater without a controller, or would I need 2 controllers? I'm convinced all the stumbling on my bike is a result of the 14.7 AFR. Another BadWebber set his LC-1 at 13.6 and now has a smooth running bike. Your thoughts? | ||
| Id073897 |
Is there a way to power-up the WB's heater without a controller, or would I need 2 controllers? You will need two controllers, because the controller monitors and adjusts the heating also. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Id073897 |
DONT DYNO TUNE. IMO it's the only way to tune an EFI, because it allows to get reproducable load/RPM conditions. To achieve this is about impossible while riding. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
on the dyno you dont get a complete load. its to fixed. i can do it both ways. but 90% of the shops are like you see there. not adequate to do the job correctly. thats why i say dont dyno tune it. unless the dyno guy understands the ecm and its behavior. its a lost cause. wasted money. if its a carbed bike sure run the dyno all day long. the fi bikes well its hit or miss on the shop doing it. make sure they set up the ecm to not police the afr in open loop as well as locking the o2 out and afv locked while tuning. then after they are done reset the numbers back to respectable levels. if they go to far the afv will get screwy after you leave the shop. then it will loose power. if they have set the ecm up correctly or at least close before tuning. it will be fine. i see all kind of messes at the track on bikes from dyno shops the good ole dyno in a trailer guys touring shows around the usa. not all are bad. its just they are not buell ecm savy enough.this goes for shops too. i dont know it all but i do a pretty good job i think from what we are given. plus having a big data bank and many many tunes out there on buells really helps to know what works and what doesnt. also dont forget there are codes that can be applied to open and close functions with out ever coding the ecm in some areas. thats my nickle. mike | ||
| Moosestang |
YOUR MAPS ARE STILL LOW ON FUEL IN THE MID AREA AND WELL AS ACCELERATION ZONES6,7,8 Those are not my maps. Those are just stock 07 xb9 maps and race ecm maps from your website. I've tried adding fuel in zone 8, but it doesn't seem to pull hard until 5,000 rpms no matter what I do. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
yep you dont have the core files set up. you are fighting the delay timers. lol as well as the open loop and closed loop transition zones. they all need moved to make the ecm reacts like a carb does. if not you will always be waiting 3 seconds .once its in open loop mode then it kicks in. there is all kinds of ways to make the ecm do the same features. each developer has his own way. i try to use the lest changed files. mike | ||
| Id073897 |
on the dyno you dont get a complete load. its to fixed. Maybe. But trying to do the adjustment "on the road" will leave more than half the cells unhit. There are good reasons then, to call these cells unused, but nevertheless, these are part of the map too. I've done thousands of miles logging and adjusting the ECM and I'm pretty sure, this all could be reached in considerably less time on a dyno. | ||
| Bombardier |
By using an O2 in the front exhaust header connected to the ecm you are telling the ecm that this is the rear cylinder. Will it not then take the information from this and apply the correction to the front fuel injector and ignition timing? How do you isolate the correction that will apply from the information received from what the ecm thinks is the rear cylinder? | ||
| Turk |
on the dyno you dont get a complete load. its to fixed. How do you figure that? Thanks to the electromagnetic brakes, dynos have the ability to hit as a steady state (and therefore tuned) points that can only be passes through while transitioning on the road. Also open loop learning should never be disabled, it's there for a reason and if you're learning in open loop after dyno tuning, something was missed and should be corrected. if not you will always be waiting 3 seconds .once its in open loop mode then it kicks in. Waiting for what? | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
well not to be in a battle here. most people cant afford dyno time anyway. yes the dyno does give a edge over road in time it take to dial in. the 3 seconds it holds before it reacts to the % of fuel targeted in the zone. set it to slow it hesitates before reaction. this is how fast it applies the open loop correction burst of fuel. just change (the delay) it to 0 and test then make it a 10 and test. the proof will be on your screen. factory is 3 all ecms. 1125r/cr uses a 2 in all ecms. been there already tested it. works great. you can see it in the afr table on the dyno. if the fuel cells are set to a power level then you need less correction. if they are on a lean mix but safe you set correction a little more. the it gives the applied % more at a time when needed then backs off. like iu have said we all have our ways we set the ecm. yes the learns should be on while riding. i use them off all the time only on race bikes. also off when tuning the fuel map. as well as the o2 off if on the dyno. remember open loop learns a afv also. dont set the scale correctly and its a mess on your hands you will be starting over. the ecm is smart. like always many ways to do it. and get the same result. any how street bikes need to be set to epa settings anyway. outside epa well this stuff should only be used on off road use bikes only. we are all. re-pete all in a very gray area every time we touch a street factory ecm. mike | ||
| Skinstains |
My head hurts. | ||
| Skinstains |
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ OK, here's the deal. I have four Buell XB's and want to get them to run a bit better. I have looked in to the ECM-Spy and think it's great. I've looked in to the Direct Link and think it too is great. I think that the method/route I take to get the improved performance will be decided on the convienience, durability and longevity of said method, and of course cost is a factor as I have to treat four bikes not just one. The bikes I have and current state of tune are as follows; 2003 XB9R track only with a 1050cc. kit, stage three Nialin heads, open airbox with a K&N, race ecm, and a Buell race can. 2003 XB9R street bike with ported heads, mild cams, open airbox with K&N, race ecm, and full Micron exhaust. 2005 XB12R with a Doebeck TFI, open airbox with K&N, race ecm, and a Drummer can. 2009 XB12X (taking delivery on 12/12) bone stock. Parts I have that are not on any of the bikes at this time are as follows; A Drummer for a 2003 XB9R, a brand new Doebeck YFI, an open airbox conversion, a full Micron system, one Buell race can, and one brand new Direct-Link kit with one disk and one key. I know my abilities and know that I'm not skilled enough to do the whole ECM-Spy thing. Very involved and overwhelming to me. I know that Mike and Al both sell maps for the ECM-Spy that I could load up with the help of my son. I already have one Direct-link with a key that I would need to have set up on a dyno. I would have to buy three more keys and dyno time for three more bikes too. What I'm looking for is a hot-rodded bike that isn't a grenade. I want performance but I don't want the bike on the razors edge. I also want usable torque not max ponies. Most importantly, I want "plug and play" meaning that I don't want to have to keep adjusting maps or timing, I want "set it and forget it". In the future I plan on further modifying all of these bikes so I want a system that I will be able to adjust with the bikes. Be it in three months or three years. I know that the Uly will be getting new pistons, a full Micron, open airbox, and maybe a big-bore kit. I don't know that the Direct-Link is or isn't capable of being re-set to suit future modifications to the bikes. Thanks for the help as I really don't know what to do. | ||
| Turk |
the 3 seconds it holds before it reacts to the % of fuel targeted in the zone. set it to slow it hesitates before reaction. this is how fast it applies the open loop correction burst of fuel. This is incorrect. There is no delay in OL corretion of fueling. | ||
| Moosestang |
This is incorrect. There is no delay in OL corretion of fueling. Then what does this box in the other maps mean?  | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
funny. its there and on the run screen with a watch you can time it and the applied fuel % number changes to the value in the box marked delay. then on the dyno the afr graph shows a dip just at that location. so my question who is wrong. the mechanical watch, graph and everyone's eyes. or turk. he has never posted positive or help on any explanations beside we are all wrong he is correct. where does turk work what teams does he support. i cant find this info anywhere. why does he post we are all wrong and i am wrong with out ever helping since he knows it all. no proof turk has any knowledge on the ecm. fess up school us or shut up. moose change the cold start 260 deg 97 to 100 next the wot drop the 165 to 155 the wot enrichment make it 110 acceleration enrichment the 1200 make the 75 a 70 make the 2000 rpm a 2300 rpm and a % 80 see help out or back out. mike | ||
| Glitch |
Personally, I wouldn't use his tunes. Do a search on his and my posts and you'll understand why. I just did, and other than disagreeing I can't find any post that makes me feel you know nay more about ECM tuning than anyone else. |
