| Author | Message | ||
     Macbuell |
I assume this bike and program is dead based on the little activity I see in the XBRR forum and the lack of any real news on this program in a long time. I assumed when the XBRR came out that we would see some real substantive trickle down from the program to a production bike at some point. I cannot tell you how disappointed I am that it does not look like this is going to be the case. I am no engineer but I thought it would be reasonable to take what they learned in the 150+ HP XBRR to produce a street-able air cooled XB13RR with around 120HP at the rear wheel. What really was the point of that whole exercise if they weren't going to make a serious effort to put something similar into production. I know that there were some parts that were developed for the XBRR that made it onto production models but the engine and the power is what I was looking for. The 1125R and the Helicon engine is cool but the air-cooled v-twin is the heart of a Buell and I was really looking forward to the next generation. A next really big step in that engine. Heck, BMW released the HP2 Sport with an air cooled Boxer engine that produces 128 HP. I know it costs over $26K but that thing is bad ass. Maybe I was delusional or misinformed or all of the above but I'm really disappointed to not see anything serious from the XBRR translate to a production XB. I am wrong, or am I missing something? Is there going to be a next generation of the XB engine lighter and with more power based on what was learned from the XBRR? | ||
| Odinbueller |
The program is not dead. There are XBRR models being raced all over the world. Buell Racing has spare engines to support the cause, along with service parts & components. There was trickle down technology, look at the 2008+ XB oil pumps. Directly off of the XBRR, along with the larger oil coolers. DDFI III first appeared on the XBRR, along with the programmable race ECM. The front fairing is akin to the 1125R equivalent (Erik spent way too much time in the wind tunnel to let that design go to just one model). The STM slipper clutch will work on all XB models as well. The purpose of the XBRR was to compete in AMA Formula Xtreme. It was also eligible for numerous ASRA/CCS/Moto-ST classes as well. This was not really a prototype bike like you see in MotoGP. It was a production XB12R HEAVILY modified to compete on the track under AMA Formula Xtreme rules. Kind of the reverse of what you were expecting. It would be hard to make the XBRR streetable. The motor produced a phenomenal amount of power for its displacement (more than DOUBLE compared to 1340CC Evo Big Twin motors), but the power came on like a 2 stroke, and it would do serious damage to those who were not capable of controlling it. Plus it had to run on 114 octane leaded race fuel, which means no really convenient way to fill up. I'm sad that we had to sell our XBRR. It was just to much of an investment in upkeep and maintenance. For a professional race team with the proper staffing, this is an awesome machine to race. We'll see what Buell has in store for the XB platform, there were many lessons learned (and being learned) on these race bikes. Chris | ||
| Macbuell |
I know that their were some items from the XBRR that made it to production bikes and I mentioned as much. I also know that we could not take the XBRR engine as is and put it on the street. But, and like I said, I'm no engineer, I thought that we would see a detuned, street-able, XB engine based on the XBRR. Are you saying that there is no way that is possible and that I was, in fact, delusional? | ||
| Hogs |
MAcbuell, I`m with ya 200 Percent, I wd have thought, and Expected atleast say a 1300 cc Xb and Damn, I don`t think that wd. have been so much for the Guys at Buell to do...What say a 100 rwhp engine from the factory stock.. Guess that will never happen.. Seems they are off on another course these days...!1125 is neat, But its not HD> engine, damn If I wanted a rocket I wd. and could have bought a jap bike ect.. Was just expecting to see something a little more in engine displacement on the HD platform... | ||
| Odinbueller |
"I assumed when the XBRR came out that we would see some real substantive trickle down from the program to a production bike at some point. I cannot tell you how disappointed I am that it does not look like this is going to be the case." I mentioned the components that did trickle down based on the aforementioned statement. My intention was to clarify that the program did offer future XB models these components for others that may read this post. "I also know that we could not take the XBRR engine as is and put it on the street. But, and like I said, I'm no engineer, I thought that we would see a detuned, street-able, XB engine based on the XBRR." As I mentioned before, the XBRR was meant to race, not exactly an R&D sled like other racing efforts from other makers. There are aftermarket kits that will get you what you are looking for, but unfortunately, Buell is not offering this as of yet. Not to say that they won't, just not yet. "Are you saying that there is no way that is possible and that I was, in fact, delusional?" Man, I have no idea where that came from. I'm just going to let that one go. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
The fairing on the 1125r looks like it was derived from the xbrr. | ||
| Macbuell |
Odin, I wasn't trying to give you a hard time and thank you very much for replying. The delusion comment was more from a self deprecating humor standpoint. Not taking a shot at you. I've looked into those after market kits and it is really hard to get any good, clear information from anyone and I do not want to jeapordize longevity for power. Anyway, like I said, I'm just disappointed that we never saw an XB13RR or something like that with 120 or so HP go into production. | ||
| Odinbueller |
I agree, it would be cool to see an over square XB right from the factory. Who knows, maybe we'll see one in the near future. I know that Pammy at Cycle Rama would be willing to share her insight into hopping up an XB, which components to use, etc. | ||
| Macbuell |
Obviously you know much more about the XBRR than I do, would it be possible to make a production version of the XBRR engine that produces about 120 HP and is reliable? | ||
| No_rice |
you can buy an xbrr motor for $18,000 from buell. plus all the other components needed to make it run. you can buy an xbrr for alot less than that. i put some serious time into checking out what it would take to run the xbrr on the street. i was somewhat dealing on one a month or 2 ago. it is do able, but would require tuning depending on seasons and such. then there is the 114 octane. mmm no dont think i need a few hundred dollars worth of that sitting in my garage in a barrel! i probably would only play around on it near my home area and such. so being in range of my fuel wouldnt be a HUGE issue. you could detune it, lower the compression and such and probably get a good tune in it and run it. but i decided that kind of defeated the purpose of having an xbrr on the street then. you can build the xb's in the range you are talking about and still have a good ridable bike. but i get what your saying, its not a factory version then. it would be possable to build that way. its not extremely hard to get that kind of power out of the xb's, but the real problem becomes trying to meet the emissions and such while producing the bigger power and still have it in an all around user friendly set up as a daily rider. | ||
| Odinbueller |
"...would it be possible to make a production version of the XBRR engine that produces about 120 HP and is reliable?" There is the proverbial crux of the biscuit. The XBRR motor was based on existing aftermarket components that were raced in the AMA Formula Xtreme class prior to the introduction of the XBRR. The XBRR motor, however, was vastly improved upon from a racing standpoint, with external oil return lines, GIGANTIC throttle bodies, better fuel delivery, and increased reliability. Now, taking that recipe from the track to the street is possible. The reason Buell Racing advised the use of Rocket Fuel 114 octane leaded fuel was due to the WAY over square motor & high compression ratio. I know that Wiseco was contracted to make the pistons for this motor, so it is possible to contact Wiseco and ask for a lower compression piston, shooting for 10.5 to one. I wouldn't recommend less than 93 octane on that setup, but if you want to buy an XBRR motor, contact Wiseco to order a lower compression piston, you can tune this setup to be streetable. This makes the motor tunable on pump gas and a bit more predictable on the street. Now, this is a "Johnny Rock Page" scenario, and unless you have a butt load of discretionary income, this is all speculation and fun thread fodder. Hell, if someone asked me to do it and backed it with the financials needed, I think I just may take that on. It would be a lot easier to use a Nalin (or equivalent kit, no endorsements or anything) kit and bore existing XB cases. I believe you can get almost 100 bhp with a stock XB12 motor with XB9 pistons, so a higher compression big bore kit would get you close to 120 bhp at the rear wheel, but it would not be from the factory. If you are looking for true Buell Racing R&D that provides higher horsepower without sacrificing reliability, 9 pistons/12 crank is the way to go. We have the capability of tuning this to get a good amount of rear wheel horsepower with this setup. To quote Linda Richmond… “…discuss!” | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks for all the insight Chris and Tim. Good thread this | ||
| Slaughter |
Tonight at Don's shop:        | ||
| Macbuell |
If you are looking for true Buell Racing R&D that provides higher horsepower without sacrificing reliability, 9 pistons/12 crank is the way to go. We have the capability of tuning this to get a good amount of rear wheel horsepower with this setup. What would that kind of mod cost? Is there someone (you mentioned Pammy at Cycle Rama) that sells a kit for this or is that something special. Consider me VERY interested in this kind of engine mod. Thanks in advance. | ||
| Odinbueller |
Nothing special, any Buell dealer can do this. Here's how it breaks down; 22707-02A - XB9 Piston Set including rings, piston pin & clips. BadWeb Price = $114.30 each, $228.60 for 2. 17059-02B - Gasket Kit, Top End. BadWeb Price = $81.45. I would recommend replacing the stock head gaskets in the kit with the Screamin' Eagle head gaskets, P/N 17056-01, BadWeb Price = $22.46. You would then need to tune the bike. The over-the-counter race ECM is OK for this, but on our XB12R race bike showed some lean running conditions by the end of its last season, so you definitely want to invest in Dyno Tuning via DirectLink or ECMSpy. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Please continue discussion. Great thread! | ||
| Hogs |
So... just with the 9 pistons gear, what r we talking as far as gains are concern installed on the 12??? Just a ball park.... | ||
| Macbuell |
What about if you combined a Remus Powerizer with the Piston Rings, Gaskets, etc? Would that work? Or is a better option to do the DirectLink or ECM Spy. Odin, thanks alot for the info. This is great stuff. | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
How does putting XB9 piston in XB12 crank increase HP? I simply don't know anything much about engine internals to figure out what's what. | ||
| Speedfreaks101 |
It reduces the space between the piston and head and the result is an increase in power. | ||
| M1combat |
It will increase the CR. I'm running custom CP Pistons with a 10.5:1 ratio in mine and it's a bit more peppy. It doesn't make boatloads more power or anything but it is noticeable. Check my profile for a list of mods. It runs well on the stock map but pinged a little from 3600-4800 at WOT on a hot day. Used ECM Spy to tune that out. Seems to run well now  | ||
| Strmvt |
that looks great it would help overall hp and torque#'s I'm running Micron exhaust open airbox catch can ecmspy what kind of #'s gain could one expect from a properly tuned bike with that set-up? | ||
| Odinbueller |
I'm not familiar with the Remus Powerizer. My experience is any kind of inline box used to adjust fuel delivery is not as reliable as devices used to modify the maps directly on the ECM. I would stick with DirectLink or ECMSpy. I have a lot more experience with DirectLink, and have a good relationship with the guys at Techno Research. We've had really good success with that product, so that's what I would recommend. I think with the 9 pistons on the 12 crank you're looking at around 12.0 to 1 compression. With that setup, you would need to run nothing less than 93 octane gas, and make sure your battery is always charged! Spinning a higher compression motor like that really zaps the CCA from the battery. With our race bike, we were looking at around 97 bhp at the rear wheel. Our last dyno graph shows a touch more than 95 bhp, and almost 75 ft. lbs. of torque. We were running a Ti Force full exhaust system and Pro Series air cleaner with the 2006+ upper airbox lid.  | ||
| Sweatmark |
Odinbueller - That's a great looking chart. Your comments re: tuning methodology are appreciated. M1combat - I'm very interested in your engine mod list, including the inclusion of '08 crank. If you don't mind, I'd like to put together a cookbook to do same for my eventual engine build. Can I give you a call to discuss sometime? PM me if that's acceptable. Thanks. | ||
| Slaughter |
2008 flywheel/crank (lightened/balanced) versus the stock 2003 Not big end bearing size - I wouldn't have it lightened much for streetbike but if you are doing new pistons, I'd definitely have them do the balancing. You can hit up Darkhorse Crank Works. This is pretty standard work for them. No race license required.  | ||
| Hogs |
Nice stuff... Keep it coming Thanks...! Just wondering though, were not not guys getting like right around or just under 100 rwhp just with the Direct link tuning and K&N air filters? etc etc All stock internal engine gear... (Message edited by hogs on September 19, 2008) | ||
| Slaughter |
Don't think you can get that kind of power without more top end and possibly compression increase. I'd think you could get kinda close to 90-ish with pretty stock internals and some re-tuning. Dyno "numbers" vary 5% or more from dyno to dyno. | ||
| Jos51700 |
Personally, I hold the view that the XBRR was more of a name-getter-outer, and R+D project for 150 horsepower chassis testing, as opposed to a "streetably-oriented" research project. However, oil pump design trickled down, and I'd love to see that powerplant on the street. With Buell, you just never know. |
