| Author | Message | ||
     Spike |
I just installed the race kit on my XB12R this afternoon- what a difference! First gear power wheelies of Bandit 1200 sized proportions. No need to whack it open, just roll it on and wait. If I slid back on the seat and sat up a little I'll bet it would stand right up to the balance point, but then it would be time to shift. It's a little flatter on the bottom end but by 4k rpm it feels great. The sound is much better. It's similar to a kitted XB9, maybe a little deeper. Installation was fairly easy. The only part that was the least bit challenging was removing the stupid cable for the InterActive exhaust. It seemed like it was wrapped up in every other wire on the bike. To top it off they pinched it between the hard casing on the wiring harness and the inside of the frame. I'm almost certain I scratched the paint on the inside of the frame trying to pull it out. I should be able to get it on the dyno sometime in the next week. I'll post the chart when I do. Mike L. '04 XB12R Firebolt (~1050 miles) '94 Turbo Miata | ||
| Opto |
This sounds good Mike. Did you need a tps reset? Any popping on deceleration? Looking forward to the dyno results. Ian. 5 sleepless sleeps to an XB12S. | ||
| Spike |
TPS definitely needed to be reset after installing the Race ECM. I limped it to the dealer (~5 miles) with the stock ECM and the fairing removed then installed the ECM and had them reset the TPS. I was surprised how well it ran with the stock ECM in place. After installing the race ECM the bike almost wouldn't start. It needed a fair amount of throttle to run and coughed quite a bit before setting the TPS. So far I haven't heard any popping on deceleration. Sometimes I hear a little muffled popping/burble when rolling off the throttle, but nothing like what I heard on the race kitted XB9R demo I rode. I haven't really had a chance to ride the bike very hard though, it may still pop under deceleration from high RPM. Mike L. | ||
| Spike |
Dynoed the bike today, very disapointing results. They did have trouble with the PC that runs the dynojet software earlier in the day so I'm hoping that today's runs were a fluke. Here are the results: The peak numbers are ~84hp and ~73ft-lbs (89.6 and 72.7 stock) but they don't tell the whole story. The big dissapointment is on the low end. An average of ~5ft-lbs lost from 2500rpm to 4300rpm with as much as 8ft-lbs lost at 3400rpm. At ~4300rpm torque starts building quickly and jumps from ~60ft-lbs to ~73ft-lbs at 5300rpm. This huge surge exlains the bike's tendency to power wheelie in 1st gear. It feels fun the first few times but it's actually difficult to ride around when powering out of a corner. The torque stays around 73ft-lbs till about 5500rpm when it starts to taper off and begins a gradual decent to ~65ft-lbs at redline. Basically the bike lost power everywhere except for the surge which provides slightly better than stock power levels from 4900rpm to 6000rpm. Another thing I must add is that the dyno operator let the bike idle on the dyno for several minutes while setting everything up. The bike was already warm when I brought it in, so I'm thinking the bike was running hot during these runs. I'm really hoping these dyno runs are inaccurate. I was going to try to look at the runs under a different correction factor but the technician deleted the runs after he printed the graph. I'm going to dyno the bike somewhere else just to compare the results. Anyone else tried a race kit on their XB12 yet? Mike Luddy, Jr. '04 XB12R (~1150 miles, now slower than stock) | ||
| Apex1 |
Spike, Despite the overall low numbers, your results sound compareable to other Buell Race Kit results I've seen; a significant dip in the low-end and a surge somewhere north of 4k RPM. | ||
| Blake |
the technician deleted the runs after he printed the graph. I'd find another technician. That is crap! How are you supposed to compare runs next time you dyno it??? The incompetence of so many technicians continues to astound me. | ||
| Rsh |
Spike. It has to be operator error. A 12 should do better. Were the results from a 4th or 5th gear run? I had my stock XB9R dynoed with 1400 miles, the 5th gear run pulled 80.8hp and 62.47ft lbs of torque, smoothing set at 5 CF: SAE. | ||
| Spike |
These numbers were from a 5th gear run. The techs here swear by 4th gear runs so I insist on at least one 5th gear pull. The technician put the 4th and 5th gear runs together on the same graph, so I just go by the 5th gear numbers. The technician didn't intend to delete the dyno runs. We were doing $10 baseline runs that day, so the dyno was quite busy. As far as I know we saved all the other runs. I don't want to sound like I'm defending the operator too much, I still disagree with him on many technical things. I'd still like to believe the dyno run was a fluke due to some calibration error, but that doesn't really explain the uneven power delivery. It seems like if it was some calibration error it would have caused an even loss across the board, or perhaps a loss that varied with power level. Not to turn this into a rant, but I have more niggles with the race kit. Ever since I installed it the bike doesn't like to idle when cold. It'll start up easily, but then the idle just drops off till it stalls. I've tried holding the throttle steady to keep the bike at ~1200rpm or so, but the idle still seems to hunt around a bit. Also, the bike now returns back to idle slowly after revving it. It falls to 2k rpm quickly, then takes it's time getting back to idle. This seems to be fairly common on the 9s, but my 12 did not do this stock. At this point I'm not happy with the race kit. I've given up the flat powerband Buell worked so hard to achieve only to gain a small about of power between 4500rpm and 6k rpm. Unless I can find something wrong with my particular kit I'm going back to stock. Mike L. '04 XB12R | ||
| Dynarider |
Mike, I have suggested to a number of 12 owners to just leave the bike alone. It runs great as is. On the 9's sure go ahead with the race kit as the bikes are underpowered & anything you can do to get a few more ponies is needed. But with the 12's they put out pretty decent hp stock & certainly none of us actually need..not saying we dont want...anymore power. leave it alone till the warranty is up & then tear into the bike if the desire is still there. | ||
| Fuzz331 |
Greg, what about the good old sound of the v-twin? This coming from an old Harley rider. Even my Road King has Vance and Hines pipes, K&N air, and carb work done. Of course that did help with performance, and I don't see the plus end of that with the race kit for the XB12R. Just wondering ? What about the drummer pipe? | ||
| Dynarider |
I have drag pipes myself on my Dyna & while i do have them working pretty well with a set of torque cones, I wont kid myself & claim I couldnt get better performance from a 2-1 pipe. Us Harley riders arent as concerned about performance, if we were we would simply buy a different bike. With Harleys its all about the sound, everyone knows that. But a Buell is bought by someone who supposedly wants performance. Why strangle the bike & limit its hp by putting on something that doesnt work? Personally I think the factory race kit is a joke. The folks with the 9's like em, but they can do better. But the race kit on the 12 seems like an afterthought to me. Why would Buell go through all the work of developing the muffler that works great on the bike& then sell a race kit that doesnt utilize it? Because they know..or at least HD knows..that folks will buy it just because it makes more noise even if it doesnt work very well. From all reports so far the Drummer is sounding pretty good. Of course I am a little biased as Brian is a friend of mine. You still have the fact of removing the factory pipe & assorted hardware that goes with it could void your warranty. Its a dealership call& not all dealerships want to play ball. | ||
| Opto |
Us Harley riders arent as concerned about performance, if we were we would simply buy a different bike. Yep, that explains why there are so many Harley performance shops. With Harleys its all about the sound, everyone knows that. But a Buell is bought by someone who supposedly wants performance. Yeh, but I want my cake and eat it too. From all reports so far the Drummer is sounding pretty good. You're not wrong there. The point is, if a person is riding around on an XB and can't hear the heritage of it's archaic "anachronistic" motor then said person is missing out on a rich part of the riding experience...well, it's not the main point, but it's an extra on the side. Gearhead summed it up pretty well, and got a smoother power delivery too. } | ||
| Opto |
BTW, how many Harleys have stock mufflers? | ||
| Court |
>>>>Yep, that explains why there are so many Harley performance shops. But, I'd bet most of them make more noise than performance. Bear in mind that HD, by it's very nature (weight, configuration, etc) does not lend itself to world class performance. Don't get me wrong, my Low Rider Custom was heavily breathed on and handily (ridden to the event) left the Mid-America All Harley Drags with a 1st Place Trophy. My much chronicled 1990 Sportster was an absolute hoot following the induction of about $10K and the article in Motorcyclist magazine about my 1996 S-1 described "what happens when a Buell guy builds his own Buell", but I have never lost sight of the fact that for a fraction of the price, a 19 year old can walk in a Honda shop, but something roll out the door and past me in a minute. I do enjoy the performance, but it's the sum total of the experience that keeps me coming back. Fear not....we, as a group, get to do the same thing to Ferrari owners at places like their Mt. Palomar gathering where I have enjoyed pulling alongside a yuppie who just parted with $150,000 for the Spider and has to come to grips with a bike leaving him like he's standing still. Wait??....I did that? Egads....MORE POWER PLEASE ! | ||
| Dynarider |
it comes to a point of what do you want out of your bike? If you want to race a Harley, like court pointed out there are plenty of shops to spend your $$$ & the bike will perform well. But at what cost meaning both $$$ & in motor life expectency. Leave a Harley pretty much stock, maybe throw in a cam & port heads & thats it. The bike will run great & if you do have any problems on a trip there are thousands of shops that can fix ya up. Hell for the money I would have to dump into a Harley to get it to perform adequately on the strip I could just go & pick up a used 1100 Kawi or Suzuki GS1100 that would blow it in the weeds & have money left over to pay for gas. If you want to eventually go racing with the bike as Blake is doing with his M2, fine get nutz. But for the average Joe on the street that just putz around & maybe does a few track days, the 12 has more than enough power to keep ya happy. | ||
| José_quiñones |
FWIW, Motorcycle Consumer News just tested the XB12S, Dynoed at 85.4 HP stock, 461.5 pounds wet. Good enough for an 11.54 second/118mph Quarter mile time. Interestingly, that is .16 seconds and 1 mile per hour slower than the 618 pound, 103 hp VROD produced when it was tested at by the same magazine. If I had one I would keep the XB12s stock, the extra noise is not that important to me, the engine and the airbox make plenty already. edited by josé_quiñones on October 19, 2003 | ||
| Bads1 |
This is why I have been reluctant to put a pipe on Dyna.I have the money but for some reason its not burning a hole in my pocket that fast.I've been waiting for results like these to make my decision.In stock form, I love the bike just the way it is.Don't get me wrong I love sound but I don't want to lose any performance to get it.Especially bottom end or the mid range where I like my power the most. | ||
| Court |
If I had an XB12, I'd save my "pipe pesos" and concentrate on listening, learning and loving the bike. These bikes know things we have yet to. I, once again, suggest the milk crate karma technique and a little time spent carefully thinking about how and why you do the things you do while riding. Few use the power they have. Buells reward kinship with the motorcycle. Court | ||
| Donald |
I have my 12R over at Jardine, they are making a pipe for it. So far in some areas of the rpm range it's making a 6 1/2 hp increase. At the moment it's just shy of 92 hp at rear wheel. I get to pick the bike up monday. I will try to post before and after dyno runs. | ||
| Dynarider |
Good choice Dana..leave it alone. Dress it up real purty if you want, but the drivetrain is fine as is. | ||
| Spike |
I too thought the stock performance was good but since Buell has to work around the EPA and I do not I figured I could improve on the stock performance and get a nicer sound while I'm at it. As it turns out I ended up with the better sound but quite a dramatic loss in performance and power delivery. If I had known this would happen in the first place I certainly would have kept the stock sound and performance. My current plan is to put the bike back to stock until I see proven performance parts come along for it. Shame on me for trusting the factory to make nice accessories. Mike Luddy, Jr. '04 XB12R | ||
| Bads1 |
Spike,Dyna heres my 2 cents... Buell like other companies Honda, Yamaha,etc. have come a long way with their drivetrain. So to actually go out and buy bolt-on performance items and then in return expect huge power gains or even decent ones it seems is real hard to get out of these bikes without internally changing things. The old tubers you could throw a muffler or a pipe of any brand on those bikes an it would make some type of improvement. Buell is getting so much better with their bikes that to me it's getting harder for me to justify doing the exhaust, ignition, etc. Like I said, if I could put a pipe on this bike without hurting any of the performance at any RPM I would do it. But, right now I don't see it happening on this board yet. | ||
| Gearhead |
I'm copying these comments from my own post in the DRUMMER thread... The Bottom Line... Erik and the Buell engineers really did their homework on the 12 pipe. As you have seen the (DRUMMER) gains were consistently higher across the board but not by a staggering amount. If you are tired of riding a vacuum cleaner sounding pipe, this is the one, HANDS DOWN!! If you look at the dollars invested for installation of the Race ECM, filter and the DRUMMER or any pipe, as far as that goes, the 12 stock set-up is pretty darn good and is included in the price of the bike. So it comes down to a little more gain, stock appearance and serviceability and a LOT better sound. For me guys, it was worth every penny!!!!! THANKS, Bubba!!! This pipe is COOL!! Again, we're talking about real dollars here, so it's got to be up to the individual to decide. I'm really enjoying the improved torque which you can REALLY feel, the sound and the fact my service guys can still jack the bike up on the pipe. | ||
| Bads1 |
I won't take anything away from Brian he did a bang up job on the pipe.But now heres another question.You have Daves and the boys warranting your scoot and the people Brian.I have Ukes and Hals and they may not feel is good about the Drummer as I do.They would most likely look at the pipe and say whats a Drummer and you messed with the stock muffler we can't warranty your bike.But I have spoke to them regarding the Buell race pipe and they will warranty your bike with that set-up.Two year warranty and I spent a good coin for the bike and alittle reluctant a mess with that for the Drummer.I'm happy with the bike the way it is,would like some sound but I'm not willing to throw the coin out for it. | ||
| Gearhead |
Bads1, You nailed it!! You've got to know your dealer will support you and any modifications you make on the bike. I would do the same thing in your place. So move to Iowa and hang out with us!! Then you can become a member of the infamous "Iowa Farm Mafia" p.s. I'm really enjoying this thread, lots of good thoughts and comments Gearhead/Ralph | ||
| Tedk |
Spike, Get the Drummer! Stop by and I'll let you try it. Call me. Ted. | ||
| Bads1 |
Gearhead I really did a number on my last bike you probably saw it on the showroom at waterloo.The one with all the lightning on it.The 12 is all so new maybe Bubba is really on to something and things will change and his pipe will get recognized more widely.Wouldn't that be cool hey Bubba,thinking big for ya. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
Yeah That would be cool. dana I understand your concern. Thing that kills me is they'll put any damn aftermarket pipe on a harley and pretty much warranty it, unless its some wierd situation. But when it comes to a buell dealers get all stuffy about it. Did you ask them what they would do if you put on a d&d or something else by a supposedly " real company". oh well like ralph said move to Iowa and become part of the mafia. Funny thing is with the drummer. its fit and finish and all that stuff is the same as the race pipe. remember where it comes from. oh well who wants a drummer | ||
| Golin |
I do, I do! Now, Can i Have a 9 to go with it?  BTW who's the ugly guy obscuring the XB in the Tilley photo? Looks like some kinda redneck. | ||
| Opto |
Yes I want one Bubba, would like to hear some more feedback from 12 owners, if possible, not looking for more power (but if it's there and smoother delivery I'll take it), but more sound, but not excessive annoy the neighbours and cops and myself on a long trip sort of sound. I feel the Drummer will do it from what I've seen posted. Bubba the race kit prices in Oz: Race kit ecm 32620-03Y $607 AUD = US $421 " " air filter 29388-02Y $188 AUD = US $130 " " muffler 65218-03Y $1142 AUD = US $791 Surely you can send me a competitive quote including freight to Brisbane, Australia? I waited 11 weeks for the XB12S, I can wait to hear the motor too. The factory race kit seems to be doing no-one any favours, but the Drummer is. Hang in there, I'm sure there are many of us very impressed with the Drummer just sitting on the fence waiting...dunno what for! Please send me a quote! now I'm begging! |
