| Author | Message | ||
     Randomchaos |
I am at a loss now guys. I have put about 300-400 miles on the bike since the dealership reset the TPS. The bike is back to running like complete crap. It has died on me 6 times now over a 24 hour period. I start her up, no gas, nothing. Just push the starter after everything cycles and the little V-twin motor light goes off. She purs to life, then 5 seconds later, the idle drops, and she sputters out. I let the fuel pump cycle again, fire her back over, and she runs rough for a couple of seconds, then smooths back out. Then, about 10 seconds later, the idle starts to dip, then go back up, then dip and go back up, until finnally it just doesnt come back up and sputters and dies again. Start her up again, rough idle for a few seconds, smoothness for about 10 seconds, then the same crap, just it doesnt die. Idle goes up and down. Start to take off, and no matter how much, or little, gas I give her, with all the slipping of the clutch in the world, she chokes, misses, and nearly locks up the rear tire. She doesnt want to idle at any stoplights, misses, sputters, coughs, chokes, whatever you want to call it as I try to accelerate any. Backfires, surges, all that good stuff on decel. Just runs like complete crap. It smooths out some after it warms up. The idle stops having difficulty, but the missing, coughing, sputtering crap is still there, just not as bad. 70 miles ago the dealership told me there is nothing wrong with it, that its running like its supposed to. Over those 70 miles, it has started running about 10 time worse than it was when I took it in. Looking at the headers, they are as blue as the sky for a good 6 inches, then start to look normal. It has the full racekit on it. The Muffler, ECM, and air filter. Oil level is fine, and has only around 1200 miles on it. The bike itself is a 2004 XB12R with around 6200 miles on it. I am frustrated beyond all hell. I bought the 2 year extended warranty through the dealership, so anything wrong with it, shouldnt cost me much money. Im tired of not having a bike though. Im tired of not being able to go out for a ride without having to worry about getting stranded. Im tired of looking like a damn fool as I ride through town on a bucking bull thats got a horendous cold. Im tired of having to focus so hard on my throttle control. One minute it can be sputtering, not wanting to move, the next its wanting to haul ass cause I had to twist the throttle half way to get it to go. I bought a stock exhaust, ecm, and filter for the bike. Im planning on trying to swap it back to stock, but have a feeling its not going to help much. I love the bike when it runs good. Its the most fun I have ever had. But when it runs bad, dear lord is it a sombitch! | ||
| Aeholton |
Intake gaskets? Did you have problems with it before the TPS reset was performed by the dealer? (Message edited by aeholton on June 20, 2008) | ||
| Randomchaos |
Im wondering myself if its the intake gaskets. I have been trying to get it out to my parents to run a quick intake manifold leak test, but just havent had the time. Its doing the same exact stuff it did before the TPS reset. | ||
| Xl_cheese |
bad 02 sensor? | ||
| Randomchaos |
Wouldnt a bad 02 sensor throw a code though? | ||
| Damnut |
chaffed spark plug wire???? | ||
| Xl_cheese |
I feel your pain. Maybe not quite as bad, but my bike has a really hard time and slow speed. I crack the throttle and it's fine. I also have an 04 12 with the race exhaust, filter, and ecm. Hrm. I wonder if the ecm itself is not as good as the newer ones? I know the data stored is the same, but maybe the actual hardware is flawed? There are two ecm versions floating around for the buells. IB310 or GB231 I have the gb231. | ||
| Randomchaos |
Yea, im fine with the bike having a little bit of a problem at slow speed. Its a v-twin, so I expect it to be a little rough up to like 15mph, but 30mph? Would a chaffed spark plug wire cause a issue like this that just gets worse and worse over time after a TPS reset? It seems like after the reset its fine, but then when the bike relearns the AFV it starts to crap out. Maybe the O2 sensor is to blame... I hate gremlins. | ||
| Xl_cheese |
There's only one way to find out... https://www.ironmachine.com/product_info.php?cPath =71&products_id=94&osCsid=5k0emqnf0e8suc5qa1d4jlv2 r0 | ||
| Deltablue |
Do load test on the Battery, and be sure it is tip top. It's a common problem with batteries that don't hold a charge under load, it plays havoc with the ECM. Mine had similar problems, and when it was really hot it would stall at idol. With a new battery, everything went away. It is also incredibly easy to screw up a TPS reset, I would rather have someone I know do it. There have been many posts about dealerships that got the reset wrong, and then the plugs get f'd up and you have to start all over. | ||
| Randomchaos |
Bought a new battery for it before the TPS reset was done, changed nothing about how the bike ran =\. | ||
| Treadmarks |
Rando, I would recommend fresh plugs, a set of magnecor wires, verify your timing is straight up, check intake seals for leaks and then proceed with a solid tps reset. At idle, the throttle body plate bounces slightly due to the pulsations from the opening and closing of the intake valves. It is important to eliminate any play between the throttle plate and the TPS. Here is how to do it: Think of the TPS as a spring loaded pot. It sends a voltage signal to the ECM and it adds fuel accordingly. Very simple really. The entire process is actually based on the starting point of the TPS in relation to the throttle plate. The TPS has two plastic index tabs that must line up with the tabs on the throttle plate shaft. It seems most TPS sensors are installed straight up from the factory and this is ok for a while. After the bike is broken in, these tabs get a small amount of wear on them and they are no longer properly timed with the true zero of the throttle plate. This is when everyone runs to the stealer to get their TPS reset. It is the combination of wear on the TPS tabs, and lack of technical proficiency of the techs that seem to always provide mixed results. In order to be certain you have a true zero try the following: With your air box assembly and base off, the TPS sensor is right on top of the throttle body. If your TPS has two orange dots, you have the new revision with the vertical alignment tabs. This procedure applies to the old style as well. Adjust both throttle cables so sufficient slack is available. Back off idle adjustment cable until the throttle plate will snap shut without touching the idle cable stop. With a scribe, mark the TPS position by scratching a single line from the throttle body to the TPS. This will serve as a reference point just in case. With a 7mm open end wrench, remove the two TPS mounting bolts and remove the TPS from the throttle body. Clean the debris from the back of the TPS and the side of the throttle body. Apply a small amount of high temp silicone grease to the tabs on the TPS to minimize wear in the future. Replace the TPS but leave the mounting bolts slightly loose and rotate the TPS full left (counterclockwise). Insure the throttle plate is totally closed, then rotate the TPS until you feel the spring make contact with the alignment tabs on the throttle plate. Rotate the TPS slightly clockwise to preload the mechanical zero position and secure mounting bolts. Most of you will notice that according to your reference marks, your new position is just slightly right of the old position. Now your TPS and throttle plate are truly aligned, without play. Connect all wiring and perform a TPS reset, just like the manual states. Now you have a solid TPS zero. Ride and feel the difference. I have no more sneezing or lean like surging. (I have been told that this procedure is in the manual somewhere. I just had to learn the hard way, as usual). Additional walkthrough provided by tootall.  | ||
| Xl_cheese |
Make sure you have that 7mm open end wrench before you start. A 7mm socket will not work... Ask me how I know. | ||
| Skully |
Geoff, Based on similar problems with a friend's XB12, Al at American Sport Bike recommended replacing the cylinder head temp sensor and it fixed everything. The ECM bases the current fuel map off of the temps reported by the sensor. If it is wrong, the bike runs like crap. Keith | ||
| Randomchaos |
I need to give Al a call as well. I have heard many a great thing about him helping strangers out  . I plan on throwing all of this at the Buell Tech at the dealership sometime this weekend and see what he thinks. I might try to do a few things on it myself, but dont want to risk voiding the extended warranty I bought. Treadmarks, that was a phenominal post! I will deffinately attempt that once I get the bike put back to stock. Will need a TPS reset after that anyways. Would be nice to be able to cruise through a school zone without slipping the clutch like im launching a drag bike. (Message edited by randomchaos on June 20, 2008) | ||
| Point_doc |
Is there a replacement cycle for the head temp sensor besides failing? Thanks, | ||
| Randomchaos |
Well, just rode the bike around for roughly 35-40 miles. One thing to add to this list, the bike runs alot better on a fuller tank. When its almsot empty, it runs extremely bad. When its full, it runs a good bit smoother. | ||
| M1combat |
Intake leak. Check it. If not I vote for arcing plug wire. | ||
| Ratbuell |
A bad cyl temp sensor will exhibit its symptoms at the same time during a heat cycle, and it will not throw a code. The computer looks for "a" value out of that sensor. Whether it is a static value or a variable one, if it sees "a" value it will not throw a code. The only code in that circuit would be a null value, or "sensor missing". I believe it is the same for an O2 sensor going out. "A" value will keep a code from triggering, but a null value will throw a code. Intake seal leaks are easy enough to check with some carb cleaner on an idling engine. Spray at the seals. If the bike stumbles...leak. We had a bike recently that fought back after a TPS reset. There are 2 ways to set the TPS, for a "low" value or a "high" value if I understand what the tech said correctly. I'd have to check with the tech to be sure, but I want to say a "normal" reset is to the high side. This bike (also a race kitted 12) wanted a low side setting. We did that, it purred like a kitten afterwards according to the owner. | ||
| Randomchaos |
How easy is it to get to the intake manifold seals? Will I need to remove the air box or anything? | ||
| Buplaux |
One word.....ECMSPY....Worth every penny, you will be able to see what the problem source is in a hurry with this software. | ||
| Wantxbr |
check your fuel pump for any pin holes in the plastic hose thats on the pump itself. with a full tank of gas there is no air getting in the fuel system but when the fuel goes down you start to draw air into the fuel line causing the motor to run rough and posibly lean it out. You should be able to check it by turning on the ignition with the Run/Stop switched to ON and your ear next to the pump and listen for a gurgling sound after the pump STOPS priming. If you hear the gurgling then you most likly have a hole in the hose. Check your intake seals by spraying some CARB Cleaner on the flange area while running and listen for the motor to raise or lower its idle. If the idle raises or lowers then you have an intake leak. (Message edited by wantxbr on June 21, 2008) | ||
| Randomchaos |
Well, managed to check the intake manifold. No leaks there. Idle stayed rock steady the entire time I sprayed carb cleaner on the seals. I also pulled the airbox off completely and checked out the top of the motor. No wires are chaffed. I will run it down on gas tomorrow and see if I can hear a gurgleing from the fuel pump area. I did notice a decent ammount of oil build up on the throttle body flap, and all through the intake, when I opened up the airbox. I also noticed some smoke coming out of the throttle body when I opened it up with the airbox off, and the engine turned off. Had just run the bike through town, and it was pretty warmed up. It smelled like burned oil, so I think there is a fair ammount blowing into the intake from the breather lines. The oil was coating the airbox as well around the breather lines. I think my next plan of action after putting it back to stock is to build a catch can. On a really good note, it ran pretty smooth today. Never died on me once after starting. I did snag some video of the idle dropping and picking back up though. Working on getting that posted up now. Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzCIB5rUg-c (Message edited by randomchaos on June 21, 2008) (Message edited by randomchaos on June 21, 2008) | ||
| Beachbuell |
How much fuel was in your tank when you shot that video? Almost seems spark related, just by going off the video. Have you checked the spark plugs, wires and coil? I've seen cracked & melted coils and wires do that before. | ||
| Randomchaos |
Had about 20 miles on that tank of gas, so it was pretty full. So that drop in idle isnt normal? | ||
| Beachbuell |
No, it should not drop to the point of stalling. Not normal. | ||
| Randomchaos |
Well, I noticed today that the stumble it has feels a lot like its running out of gas, when I know there is plenty in it. I remember how a bike feels as its running out of gas from riding my 250 ninja way back when . It runs pretty smooth when on a full tank, but once I get around 50 miles on a tank of gas, it start to cough. I could hear a slight gurgle after I kicked the fuel pump on today after my ride. It was pretty difficult to hear, but will see if I can hear it again in the morning. I have around 115 miles on the tank of gas, so its getting on the low side. I might drain the fuel and pull the fuel pump out next weekend while I'm fitting the stock parts back on it. maybe I will be able to see something there. Thanks for everybody's input so far | ||
| Beachbuell |
Getting to the fuel pump on an XB isn't exactly quick and easy. But, I hope you get it figured out. | ||
| Spuds |
hey Randomchaos..... ever sort this out? what was the culprit? my 03 9r is doing the same thing.....runs "fine" (or maybe I've become aclimatized to not noticing any lost power) when you're bookin' it, but any other time, (idling, decel, or just maintaining throttle) it's surging, coughing, sputtering, resonating...). |
