| Author | Message | ||
     Loose1 |
Has anyone done an E-85 conversion on an xb? I was wondering what all needs to be changed out besides adding 30% more fuel. | ||
| Jwhite601 |
Get a larger Fuel Cell(frame), so you'll be able to ride awhile. Wonder how many miles per frame full? | ||
| Drfudd |
E85 is like detergent it'll eat seals, has a tendency to corrode aluminum, gaskets, hoses, seals, etc. What a company does to make a vehicle run E85(not flex fuel)is use stainless steel components, up the compression ratio (if possible), put in different injectors and add a preheater to the fuel line (E85 can turn to gel in cold temperatures) and of course remap the computer. E85 only has about 80% of the power of gasoline. But it does have a higher Octane rating (99 to 109 depending on the quality of the fuel, ethanol manufacturing produces alot of impurities) So it is best to take advantage of that, you can reliably get 14:1 compression on good fuel. your bike will run with E85 right now, but it will void warranties, and possible cause damage to engine and fuel components and you will get significantly reduced power out of it. I'd like to know if anyone has made a bike run on E85, XB or anything | ||
| Ccryder |
Back in the 90's I was in the fuel rail business and we experimented with E85 to see if our rails would hold up. Short story not over a 2-3 year period. E85 just loves to leach copper out the brazed joints. It turns some plastics and rubber into goo (a technical term). Most E85 capable vehicles have a sensor to determine what mixture of fuel they are running. This sensor then feeds back to the ECM and tells it what to do to run properly. Bottom line, I wouldn't take a chance on running any of my vehicles on E85 unless the Mfg'r told me it was ok. It will ruin your day, maybe not today but, in a short period of time. YRMV but.............. Neil S. | ||
| Chrisrogers3 |
(E85 can turn to gel in cold temperatures) The freezing point of ethyl alcohol is -243 F. and the flash point of gasoline is -97 F. so obviously the freezing point is substantially lower. I am not too sure E85 turns to "gel" in cold temps.....When is the last time your bottle of Absolute turned into gel? But then again I don't have a whole lot of scientific proof behind me just trying to think in the common sense line. Yes it usually gets me in trouble. I do know that the stainless components are crucial because ethanol is pretty acidic. Ethanol manufacturing has many impurities, but it is inspected and scrutinized just as gasoline is, each and every gallon of ethanol goes through a series of 5 micron filters prior to being sent out of the plants. | ||
| Eengler2 |
You don't need a tank warmer for E85. I think you are confusing E85 ethanol with someone converting a diesel vehicle to run on vegetable oil (then you need to run a heater to keep liquid.) | ||
| Xl1200r |
I think the bigger question is "why?" E85 makes less power and gets worse mileage than gasoline, and the lower price doesn't typically make up for the MPG difference. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
the environment foot print of one XB out there running e85 wouldnt make a wit of difference to global warming. run it the way she is. You will always be able to get unleaded gas in some form (even if you have to bottle feed octane boost) If it makes you feel better, put a sticker on the bike that says "My other Vehicle RUNS E85" | ||
| Loose1 |
You can make more power on E85 because the compression can be raised. I want to put a turbo on my xb9 and want to take advantage of the higher octane rating. | ||
| Sloppy |
I think you actually make more power because your adding more fuel (something like an extra 30%?) than gasoline. Hence your fuel usage increases (and your range decreases). Yes, you can run higher compression rations, but it has exponentially diminishing returns once you're above 12:1. Its kinda like Nitromethane -- even though it has a lower HHV than gasoline, since you add twice as much you get more energy per combustion cycle. Nitro burns at 6:1 vs. gasoline at ~ 13:1 air to fuel ratios. Give me some leeway on the numbers, my CE Handbook is at home... Short answer: if you want more power in your fuel then use N2O. If you want a better environment use Public Transportation... | ||
| Loose1 |
n2o is useless on the street! I hate n2o, everyone thinks this is the all horsepower answer. It only can be used at WOT. | ||
| Drfudd |
Its not so much it turns to gel as the viscosity increases and its becomes very difficult to atomize in the injectors. Lots of people in the northern latitudes complain that they have trouble starting with E85 in the middle of winter. | ||
| Sloppy |
Turbo's are also only "useful" at WOT... that throttle valve is only a glorified air flow restrictor, just what a turbo hates. So, you want more power out of a turbo and run higher compression ratio's. Got it -- try alcohol / water injection based on a pressure switch / relay. MSD and Mallory make them. Not sure how you're going to deal with ignition timing though - perhaps Zippers already has them? Perhaps Crane has something? What are you going to do with the heat of compression? If you want to do E85 then you'll need to change out your fuel system to viton or teflon (maybe EPDM?), run larger injectors, get a different ECM and possibly run a different fuel tank (I recall there is some interaction between alcohols and aluminum). Also you'll need to run a safety switch to make sure you don't lean out the mixture and put a hole in your piston -- plenty of pictures of those on the net. Perhaps an EGT switch? I'd still recommend N2O for street power. Plenty of ready made kits. Heck -- you can even run a N2O on E85 as your booster fuel if you still want to use E85. Either that or get a Hayabusa  | ||
| Bombardier |
We have this crap in Oz and it is just bad news. On a long term basis it will eat everything plastic or non viton and also some rubbers. Not sure what is in the fuel pump but if it is plastic or rubber this stuff will stuff it. Want to get more go from your fuel and save money? Use aviation fuel for when you really need to give it some. On the long term it will be cheaper than totally reconfiguring your fuel and engine components. If your worried about the greenhouse effects of the high octane aviation fuel then I suggest that bombing the guts out of a 1200cc 2 cylinder air cooled motorcycle to go seriously fast is probably not in the best interests of the environment anyway. No being critical dude, just my perspective for what its worth. | ||
| Cycleaddict |
from a performance perspective the only advantage to run any alcohol type fuel is that as a result of it's "cooling" effect, (evaporative) it allows you to run a "leaner" mixture. and we all know that lean = max power ! (just b-4 pistons melt etc.) | ||
| Teddagreek |
I'm a VW guy... The Alcohol Air cooled VW's made for South America run very well and cooler than a gas motor... E85 remember 20%ish rule... 8 gallons of gas will get you as far as 10 gallons of E85 So if gas is $3.00 a gallon, E85 needs to be $2.40 for you to go the same distance | ||
| Jos51700 |
You fellas crack me up. Alcohol has a LOWER freezing point than water or fuel. Whoever said their E85 vehicle gelled, is lying. Think about it. Gelled fuel causing hard starting? So.........after it finally starts, it runs fine? The fuel magically ungels? Sure 'ting! E85 hard starting on conversion is related to poor atomisation, and difficulty in adding extra fuel for cold starting, same as gasoline. Ever wonder what the red stuff is in your kids' thermometer? Bingo! Ethanol! E85 eats aluminum? Beer cans everywhere are suffering! Think about it! E85 is 85% Ethanol. What is "drinking" alcohol? Right. Ethanol. Whoever said ethanol eats aluminum must only buy bottled beer. Now, "Methanol" might eat aluminum, on that I'm not sure. Typically, people that have issues with Ethanol/E85 eating metal componants are people using fuel with high water contamination. The same happens with water contamination in gasoline. Using the 20-30% rule for fuel doesn't mean you make more power. It means you need MORE fuel to make the SAME power! Seriously, I KNOW you guys and gals have the 'net. Look this stuff up! Here's a link to an article for converting Carb'd cars over. The same caveats apply to FI, there's just more computer use, and less wrench spinnin'. The power increases mentioned apply to OLD cars that were originally designed for HIGH OCTANE fuel. NOT our aluminum head, low-octane (relatively speaking) motors. Converting to E85 nets you little unless your motor is built for high octane, with the resultant changes in cam, ignition, etc. E85 does not compare to Nitrous. Nitrous oxide adds oxygen, not fuel. The power comes from adding extra fuel to go with the nitrous. Adding more air(oxygen), OR more fuel by themselves get you NOTHING! (see "stoichiometric ratio" for more info.) On with the link! http://www.moparts.org/moparts/picture/print/pages /Vraa.html Aviation gas? "Cooling" effect? Wow. | ||
| Cycleaddict |
jos51700 yes , alcohol based fuels "do" have an evaporative cooling effect in the intake tract. maybe you should do some research ............why do a lot of "racing" vehicles use alcohol ? (besides the obvious safety reasons) | ||
| Jos51700 |
I'm not denying the "cooling effect". I just didn't say it was the only performance advantage. To say so is to express complete ignorance of the subject. It doesn't cool anywhere near what a good shot of nitrous does, though. Since you don't elaborate to prove your point, I will. Alcohol is a fuel of choice in many racing classes and vehicles because, with a low-cost, high-octane fuel, like Ethanol, high compression ratios can be safely built into the engine, with a significantly lower operating cost. More compression=more power. Ethanol is cheaper than gasoline, given equal octane ratings. BTW, the above is covered in my link. I didn't think I needed to repeat it. I was wrong. | ||
| Drfudd |
maybe Gel, wasn't the right word, but in colder temperatures it doesn't evaporate (atomize) in the injectors right because its viscosity is greatly increased, its still liquid, but just with a increased viscosity, IE the need for a inline fuel heater if you live near or in Canada land. Due to the fact that it can reach very cold temperatures, I used to live in Michigan and it does get cold enough outside to freeze vodka. and ethanol fuel isn't 100% ethanol. It does have a small amount of methanol in it which is the cause for aluminum corroding. now your normal gasoline which is E10 (10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) doesn't hurt aluminum because the effects on it are so small its immeasurable. Methanol breaks down the aluminum oxide layer that protects aluminum and turns it into methanol oxide, and allows other things to corrode the aluminum. The good part is that ethanol easier repairs this aluminum oxide layer. Now E85 does eat aluminum just at a very very slow rate. If the aluminum has been anodized at all you don't have this problem and I think there is enough aluminum in our fuel tanks that it shouldn't be a problem. But I wouldn't risk it. I'm all for E85 conversion but I wouldn't want someone else to extensively test it before I'll ever use it. | ||
| Sloppy |
Wow, and I though I was the only person who comes across like a gluteous event horizon... Beer in cans ~ E03. Dilution is the solution? E85 = 170 proof. I wonder why they don't put that JD or any hard liquor in aluminum containers... hmmm. Come to think of it, I've never bought any fuel in an aluminum jug... always steel or plastic... hmmm. Just wondering. Not saying that it will react, but trying to form a conclusion based on beer can use for a concentrated solution can be very dangerous... Of course E85 is not just pure ethanol and gasoline (I don't think ethanol and gasoline are miscible -- think water and gas). There are lots of additives in as well so we have to be careful here. I'd suggest researching with DOT on the ACTUAL properties of "DOT E-85" rather than just trying to say in your best Oaky accent, "it's goo 'ol moonshie wid a libble bit of high test"... Bottom line: Don't plant to convert your Buell to E85 unless you're in jail and have nothing else to occupy your time with... (Message edited by sloppy on December 14, 2007) | ||
| Cycleaddict |
well josh51700 ......... i stand by my statement. gasoline can be "had" in most any octane rating you desire XXX. (I never heard of fuel "cost" being a major factor in a racing enviroment.) oh, and your "nice" attitude should help you get everything you "deserve" in life. | ||
| Teddagreek |
I tried to run my buell on 170 proof...  I didn't get out of the garage... My legs gelled out.. | ||
| Rah7777777 |
from what I have been told, to make E-85 the process uses more energy then the energy from the fuel once finished. now the same can be said for gasoline, but not as bad as E-85. If i recall gas is pretty close to a 1:1 ratio of input energy to output energy. I think E-85 is like 1:0.6 I may be wrong, as it does happen often, but I think this is how it goes. | ||
| Bombardier |
Aviation Fuel. 1. Higher Octane 2. Made to a controlled standard The above reasons I suggested using aviation fuel in the setup he was suggesting. This fuel is reasonably accessable and is somewhat cheaper than dedicated racing fuel. The fact that it is made to a controlled standard allows for tuning to the near limits as the fuel is a known and constant factor. Tuning for pump fuel is usually a little on the safe side to allow for the wide variances. The higher octane rating and cleaner state of the fuel allows for a higher boost to be safely applied as the above tolerances are closer to a constant and, as there are no dirty bits, for want of a better word the fuel usually burns cleaner and leaves no heat inducing residuals. | ||
| Teddagreek |
Big Oil are putting a big spin on it.. E85 puts more money in working peoples hand than Oil... Rich Stock holders don't like that, That has been trickling down to talk $hows for spin.. Does it take more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy we get out of it? Response: No. This has been a common misconception of the ethanol industry, that it takes more energy to make ethanol than is available to the final consumer. Remember, ethanol is produced from plant matter, today dominated by corn, wheat, potatoes, sorgum, etc. Plants grow through the use of energy provided by the sun and are a renewable resources. In the future, ethanol will be produced from waste products or "energy crops." In fact, a partner of the NEVC, BC International (BCI), is currently constructing an ethanol production plant in Louisiana that will use sugar cane waste to produce ethanol. Additionally, BCI is considering the establishment of ethanol production facilities in California that would use the waste hulls from rice growers and wood waste from the forrest industry to produce ethanol. Energy crops such as perennial switch grasses, timothy, and other high-output/low-input crops will be used in the future. Current research prepared by Argonne National Laboratory (a U.S. Department of Energy Laboratory), indicates a 38% gain in the overall energy input/output equation for the corn-to-ethanol process. That is, if 100 BTUs of energy is used to plant corn, harvest the crop, transport it, etc., 138 BTUs of energy is available in the fuel ethanol. Corn yields and processing technologies have improved significantly over the past 20 years and they continue to do so, making ethanol production less and less energy intensive. http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php | ||
| Birdy |
The biggest problem facing E-85 or any other energy is BIG MONEY. They have it and they will do anything to keep it. It's all about control,see? We should embrace E-85 if for no other reason than it'd get OPEC off our back and their hand out of our pocket. Plus we wouldn't be sending find young men and woman to die in some sand box for the rich.  OK, I feel better now. BTW get caught with a tank of Av-gas on the street and Da Man will take a dim view of it...anyway most fight centers aren't going to let you "Pull up to the Pump" anyway! | ||
| Chrisrogers3 |
from what I have been told, to make E-85 the process uses more energy then the energy from the fuel once finished. now the same can be said for gasoline, but not as bad as E-85. Out of a 45 million gallon (usually they can produce 15% to 30% over) a year facility, the overhead is give or take 1.5 to 1.9 million bucks and the numbers in the end of the month are roughly around 3 to 4 million coming in. So it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure these things out. I know this because I used to work at one. So even if you were only to use the ethanol you would still make money off of it. You also get beverage grade CO2 and a byproduct and then you get the mash (which you turn into Dried Distillers Grain (DDG) which then is sold back to the farmers for feed. This is a high in protein supplement for cattle. Also the Chinese LOVE this stuff for some reason. Producing ethanol is a lucrative business, of course your "big oil" special interest groups dont want you to know those things. There is approx 5 ethanol companies in WI now and EVERY single one of them are making a killing. Trust me on that one. I have been out of the ethanol loop for a couple months now, but from what I am told Renew energy and Utica energy just brought the largest ethanol facility in the world on line in Jefferson, WI and is supposed to produce 120 million gallons (again they usually produce well over that) of ethanol a year. | ||
| Blake |
Ethanol production is currently heavily subsidized by our tax dollars. So much for the Big Oil rich people conspiracy. Someone stated that it takes more energy to produce gasoline than it provides? That is ludicrously false. Wherever you are getting that kind of nonesense, I strongly suggest you avoid giving credence to any/all "information", actually propaganda, offered there. More working people benefit from the ethanol industry than the petroleum industry? That is another lucicrously false assertion. Good grief. Rich stockholders? I guess hating the wealthy is en vogue for some. But what about all the other millions of stockholders, you know, all the folks with 401Ks, and IRAs populated with mutual funds that hold stock in... oops. Let's not go hatin' on the middle class now. | ||
| Bombardier |
Over to the backfire board with yas. |
