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Djkaplan
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 11:36 am: | 
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Not sure what 'tail' braking is. Did you mean 'trail' braking or is this some new technique?
The only time I ever drag the rear brake in corners is past the apex when there are ripple bumps on the exit of the corner. If you start gassing it through the ripples while still leaned over, it can unsettle the rear tire and cause it to step out. I've found that dragging the rear brake while on the throttle at the same time would help keep the rear in line and thrusting forward, instead of breaking loose and drifting. It's a crude form of traction control, but it works. I'm pretty sure Mick Doohan was doing this trick with the 'thumb lever' he used after losing the use of his right ankle.
I stumbled onto this a long time ago because of a specific corner on a motocross track, but I've used this technique in corners on pavement too. Try it sometimes if you encounter a corner with ripple bumps past the apex. "Past the apex" is the key phrase here.
But any time I use the rear brake before the apex after I've initiated the lean... it means I got something wrong. |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 12:03 pm: |
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Yabuell, I have not tried this personally and don't know any pros that do. I ride with the balls of my feet on the pegs during aggressive riding/hard cornering giving plenty of clearance to the ground and leverage to weight the appropriate pegs. Also trying to ride the brake in a hard right turn would dig the outside front of my foot into the ground. Just thinking about that hurts. Maybe it's my size 12s. |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |
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"I wouldn't call Pegrams style incorrect just because he is not hanging off the side."
You also have to take the corner in consideration... not all of them require hanging off.
You want to hear a real argument, listen to two supermoto riders discuss the merits of hanging off or putting your foot down in the corners. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 04:13 pm: |
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Brewtus,
My apologies. I have been through your state across Rt 10. So, no I haven't toured there.
The ridge at the edge of the center wear flat on the front tire does make sense. I had the original front Dunlop on for 15,000 miles and it would do that to me. It got to where I could feel it ride up onto its edge and then it would "push" or slide to the outside of the turn. It can be a greatly reduced contact patch. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 04:31 pm: |
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Maybe "incorrect" is too strong of a word and sure... Pegram is fast BUT...
He's using tire that he doesn't NEED to in THAT turn. It could be saved for turns where he does need it. If you ride like that on the street and then come up to a tightening radius turn you're out of lean angle and you have to move your body. If you were riding either straight or hanging off you could just add lean angle and be fine. Physics says that hanging off and lowering the center of gravity should produce a higher corner speed using the same lean angle with the bike.
At any rate... My point with using pegram as an example was just to illustrate that a person could be getting to the edge of traction without going really fast. That's not good. IMO it's better to leave everything possible in reserve for the unplanned stuff. That means either hang off or at least lean to the inside.
Nick Einatch used him as an example in "Total Control" as well. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 09:21 pm: |
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ummmm Lee Parks wrote "Total Control" |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 10:44 pm: |
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Errr yeah, I meant Lee Parks  .
Nick wrote "Proficient Motorcycling".
Thank you . |
Brewtus
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 02:52 pm: |
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Thanks for all the help.
I think I figured it out. It's mostly my riding position and throttle control. I did find myself coasting through the turns instead of rolling on the throttle. I started "kissing the mirror" and the chicken strips are getting smaller. By the way that book by Lee Parks has great info in it. |
Mikef5000
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 05:44 pm: |
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+1 on Total Control! Great Read!
I try to finish all my brakeing before entering a corner, and then apply constant smooth throttle. If I need to scrub off a bit more speed I'll get on the rear brake a little. Letting off then back on the throttle is too jerky, and the front tire is already doing enough, so I stay away from the front brake unless I'm almost completely upright again. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 08:41 pm: |
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You'd be amazed how much front brake you can use while leaned over . Just don't practice it on the street and if you DO practice it (at the track) combine it with the rear. Works great for those tightening double apex turns. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 12:15 am: |
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DO NOT try trail braking until your bike is totally setup and the suspension is working for you without you having to think about it.
Definitely give it a try on the track when your laptimes are dropping and have plateaued and you're now looking for ways to start cutting another half second off here and there. Doing it right isn't easy, doing it WRONG will take away from your turning confidence and performance.
There's more to legit trail braking than it seems
(Message edited by slaughter on August 25, 2007) |
Yabuell
| | Posted on Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 11:47 pm: |
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So do you guys just pick a speed you think is ok for a turn, kiss the mirrors until you hit the apex and throttle out? I brake while entering a turn. Sometimes almost up to the apex.I think this helps to get the bike turning with less counter steer.
But I don't get anything near 15,000 miles on a front tire either. More like 5 or 6k at best. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 12:05 am: |
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While riding on the street I just brake early enough so that I can get slowed before the turn. It's safer that way. |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 10:20 am: |
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The last time I was on the front brake really hard, I was getting a lesson in late braking from New12R on an SV650 in the mountains. I got lulled into entering a corner much faster than I typically would have, and we both lifted the rear tires off the the pavement and had to dive towards the apex. I saw Charlie dive to the right with the rear tire still off the pavement... and I could swear I did too. It was a demonstration of braking I won't soon forget.
Maybe using the rear brake would have stopped the cetripital force and presession of the rear wheel in that case, eh? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 10:58 am: |
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Well if you're at the point that the rear is off or just skimming the ground you shouldn't be using it any longer as it'll start to chatter.
Just something to think about...
Anyone have any idea why the top GP guys have started taking their left foot off the peg when coming into left hand turns really hard? |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 11:10 am: |
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It was a joke... the rear brake is almost useless when entering most corners at racing speeds, but for 7/10ths messing around on the streets, you can use the rear brake you want (all through the corner if you want to).
If I lost the rear brake on a race track (as I have in the past) I could still stay out there and finish, but losing the front brake... forget about it and get off the track. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 05:08 pm: |
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Kinda.... It's mostly useless in the straight part of braking after the initial grab of both brakes.
Different strokes . |
Xbullet
| | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 06:49 am: |
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Anyone have any idea why the top GP guys have started taking their left foot off the peg when coming into left hand turns really hard?
um...because they've been ridin' flat-track in their off time?
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Gentleman_jon
| | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 07:51 am: |
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Anyone have any idea why the top GP guys have started taking their left foot off the peg when coming into left hand turns really hard?
They are making sure the kickstand is up before turning left.
I do it all the time m'self!
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Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 08:21 am: |
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Anyone have any idea why the top GP guys have started taking their left foot off the peg when coming into left hand turns really hard?
It's something that Rossi started doing a few years ago and it seems others have followed suit. I think it is because of the extreme lean angles achieved in GP racing these days. They lift their left foot to reposition it before the turn. If they left their foot in the normal gear changing position they would wear their foot away in no time!
You don't see the same thing on right hand turns, as they tend not to use their rear brake on the entry to corners, so the right foot is always tucked up out of the way anyway. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 01:38 pm: |
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I don't think that's it. They don't do it on right handers because they are using the rear brake.
Think "fulcrum" and "lever arm" and I think you'll figure it out . |
Xbullet
| | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 06:10 pm: |
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"fulcrum"? "lever arm"? i'm a mechanic, not a mechanical engineer!!!
just kiddin'. i'm not a mechanic either.
i've thought about it all afternoon and i still don't have it figured out. |
Mattl
| | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 09:00 pm: |
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Talkin' about leaning, so I have the Select seat, and wear some FXRG leather pants. Those two seem to stick together real well, and I have to stand up to lean to one side or the other. Can't just slide on the seat. Was thinking of just putting a nice coat of oil on the seat so I could slide easier. JK!
But really, any ideas? Do I need a different seat or pants?
Also, I can't ever seem to hit the peg feelers before I start shaving the heck outa my boot toes. I consciously try to tuck my feet in best I can, but still end up dragging my feet and never the pegs. Only wear a size 9. ??? |
Xbullet
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 06:05 am: |
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hey matt, those curb feelers will get you killed. take 'em off. it's for your own good!
and are the balls of your feet on the pegs? heels facing behind you, 'stead of down? if you hang yer toes off to the side with yer heel on the peg, you will drag yer boots.
as for pants, gettin' somethin' different is probably a good thing. if yer butt is stickin', it's no fun. the seat is fine. fxrg's are made to sit still on a cruiser. time for some track pants of some sort.
ever make it down into GA to ride? |
Glitch
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 08:13 am: |
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I was getting a lesson in late braking from New12R ...
You'll be at the next class (Buelltoberfest) right?
Non-event-event, means I'll be riding riding riding!
I can't wait!
hey matt, those curb feelers will get you killed. take 'em off. it's for your own good!
No kidding!
My left one grabbed so hard that it broke off. Scared the shit out of me, talk about a pucker moment. |
Mattl
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 02:08 pm: |
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Interesting. I always thought those feelers were for safety. Like a warning device or something. Off they go then if you say so.
I got these FXRG pants because the legs unzip all the way on each side, so they are quick and easy to take off when I get to work. Just wear my work pants under them. Guess I could get a different pair when I'm out on dedicated rides. Unfortunately, most of my ride time is back roads to and from work.
As far as foot placement, I've always ridden with my boot heel up against the peg, with toe on or to the side of each lever. In turns, I hold my toe above the shift/brake levers. So you all pull your feet back through the turns and then reposition after?
I think I'll be visiting Amazon to get one of those books you all mentioned.
Xbullet, I haven't made it down to GA on a ride yet. Only ventured as far as BRP, and in a couple weeks up to VIR. I'd love to do a track day at Road Atlanta! You anywhere near that?
Thanks for everyone's input! Sorry for the hijack. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 02:39 pm: |
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Matt, yes in turns position the balls of your feet atop the pegs to avoid dragging them.
Some of ya need to please slow down on public roads. You are gambling with your lives/well-being. Eventually the odds wil catch up with you. Please save the extra-aggressive riding for the track. It simply isn't worth it. Take it from one who spent a week in hospital, months in recovery and who now sports a mangled skeleton. It simply isn't worth it, not even close. |
