| Author | Message | ||
     Ridrx |
...but I was told that in order to get correct sag measurements(preload settings) the damper settings must be set to full soft, allowing the spring to be properly loaded. Anyone heard of this before? I posted this in the KV a couple days ago with no response, but I would really like to know. | ||
| Dentfixer |
It sorta makes sense, and it couldn't hurt. So why not? | ||
| Skully |
Damper setting have NOTHING to do with sag. Sag is totally a function of your weight, spring rates, and how much preload you have dialed in. Keith | ||
| Ridrx |
Skully, Agreed, exactly why it makes some sort of sense to try to eliminate/minimize the dampers effect from the equation...no? | ||
| 07xb12scg |
On coil over shocks the spring is what supports the weight not the damper. | ||
| Ridrx |
On coil over shocks the spring is what supports the weight not the damper. 07, Actually, the spring supports the load in any suspension that uses one, not just coil overs. I'm fully aware of the parts in a suspension and the roles they play. If you had read my first post, you would have seen that the point of softening the dampers was to ensure the spring gets properly loaded(no damper resistance) during the preload/sag adjustment...but thanks for playing. Still looking for input from people with suspension building/tuning experience. Perhaps the fellow that shared this info is misinformed...or he's onto a "secret" most don't know about? | ||
| Xl1200r |
Ridrx, I can't see it hurting any, but I think it's generally not needed. All the damper should do is slow down or speed up the rate at which the spring gets loaded and unloaded. It won't have any effect on how much load the spring gets. When doing a sag adjustment, the suspension is moving VERY slowly compared to real riding conditions, so I can't see the dampers really having any measurable effects. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
If you had read my first post, you would have seen that the point of softening the dampers was to ensure the spring gets properly loaded(no damper resistance) during the preload/sag adjustment...but thanks for playing. Maybe you don't understand suspension as well as you think you do, "but thanks for playing". | ||
| Ridrx |
07, ?????? Really? What is it you think I don't understand? Bear in mind I have been to school for Ford, MOOG, Monroe, Tokico, Rancho, and Saleen as well as being an ASE cert. front end tech for over 13yrs...so, yes please explain suspension to me. You are the right tool for job, no? While dampers are not directly responsible for sag, they DO have an effect on slow compression of the spring, thus possibly affecting final sag measurements. Why do you think high end suspensions have separate high/low speed damping adjustments...you did know that? Damping force and compression speed are directly related. Obviously you missed the point of, or didn't understand the post, so please don't comment unless you have experience in the matter at hand. Thank you. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Sorry Ridrx... damping has no effect what-so-ever on sag, especially at the suspension speeds encountered while measuring it (nitrogen pressure in the shock will have an effect on sag, though). The more you argue to justify your assertion, the more wrong you are going to be. You could empty the damper of all it's oil, and it would give you the same sag on the rear. On the front, friction in the fork has more of an effect on sag than damping. The simple fact of the matter is anyone can go out to their bike and find out. | ||
| Teeps |
Ridrx Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:03 pm: ...but I was told that in order to get correct sag measurements(preload settings) the damper settings must be set to full soft, allowing the spring to be properly loaded. Anyone heard of this before? No. But the damper's internal pressure might. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"...but I was told..." Who told you this Ridrx? | ||
| Scottsts |
Ridrx- The reason bikes have high and low speed adjustments is to give the squids something to play with, not to affect sag in any way. MOTOGP bikes do not have seperate high and low speed damping adjustments because, according to Rossi's Ohlins tech, "It isn't needed" (As read in Roadracing World article). I'm not doubting or challenging your knowledge but you are getting sucked in to what is nothing more than the bike mfg's marketing scam! | ||
| Djkaplan |
"MOTOGP bikes do not have seperate high and low speed damping adjustments..." I find it hard to believe that all MotoGP bikes don't have high and low-speed damping adjustments on their shock absorbers. | ||
| Scottsts |
According to the Roadracing World article they don't. You can either learn something today or not. Suit yourself. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Whoah... whoah. Tell me where I can find this Roadracing World article you speak of, how about that? And temper your responses. There isn't any reason for that kind of attitude, especially when you didn't qualify your assertions with a reference to a specific issue of Roadracing World. If you have this issue, by all means quote from it. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I think everyone needs to take a break to change their tampons... | ||
| Ridrx |
The more you argue to justify your assertion, the more wrong you are going to be. I'm not claiming this info is right, hence my post asking had anyone heard this before. No argument from me. Who told you this Ridrx? A new neighbor who claims he used to work for Ohlins...unverified. I'm not doubting or challenging your knowledge but you are getting sucked in to what is nothing more than the bike mfg's marketing scam! How does my asking a simple question equate to me being "sucked in" to anything? High /low speed damping serves a purpose other than a knob to turn. I can believe MotoGP doesn't use separate low speed damping, since they don't do any low speed riding. Sorry I even asked now. I remember, not that long ago, BadWeb was about helping each other and learning about our bikes... | ||
| Djkaplan |
"I can believe MotoGP doesn't use separate low speed damping, since they don't do any low speed riding." Low-speed doesn't refer to the speed of the vehicle in this context. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Sorry I even asked now. I remember, not that long ago, BadWeb was about helping each other and learning about our bikes..." You learned that damping doesn't influence sag. Be happy. | ||
| Scottsts |
Whoah... whoah. Tell me where I can find this Roadracing World article you speak of, how about that? And temper your responses. There isn't any reason for that kind of attitude, especially when you didn't qualify your assertions with a reference to a specific issue of Roadracing World. If you have this issue, by all means quote from it. First, you need to read your own posts. You are not coming across as such a nice guy. Second, I will post the Roadracing World article when I find it. I read it recently and have a good idea as to it's location. Frankly, i'm a little put off that i'm expected to qualify my responses. Is that how it is around here? I hope you will man up with an apology once you are proven incorrect. | ||
| Ridrx |
Dj, That was a joke, I just forgot to put the dying laughing icon in. I figured if everyone is feeling sarcastic and smarta$$ today, I'd join in. You guys ought to lighten up. I asked a simple question, to see if anyone else had ever heard of this method as I had not. I'm no motorcycle suspension tuner for sure, but I do know that just because I've never heard something before doesn't make it wrong by default. I'm always open to a better, more effective, more efficient way to do anything. That doesn't mean I believe everything I hear, read or see, but sometimes you stumble across details that do make a difference(even if a small one). Is this one of them? Probably not, but it is worth looking into IMO. I'm off to set the sag adj. using both methods to see if there is in fact any difference in final measured sag. Feel free to argue amongst yourselves. (Message edited by RidrX on July 24, 2007) | ||
| Djkaplan |
An apology for what? For saying that I found something hard to believe? Are you sure you got the right guy? Could you specifically point out where I come off as not such a nice guy? I'll make a statement now and stand by it. I don't know anything about the dampers used on MotoGP bikes, but I can't see how it could reasonabley be feasible for them to have single damping settings for the velocity and amplitudes they must encounter in racing. Whether the high and low speed damping is controlled by separate knobs or electronically, I still stand by what I said: I find it hard to believe they don't have high and low speed damping adjustments. If you think I need to apologize for finding something hard to believe that turns out to be true... I will. Just for you, Scott. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"I'm off to set the sag adj. using both methods to see if there is in fact any difference in final measured sag." I just tried it on my Penske shock. It didn't. | ||
| Scottsts |
Not only do MotoGP bikes not have high/low speed damping adjustments, they rarely go more than a click or two in either direction the ENTIRE season. I'll wait while your head explodes. | ||
| Djkaplan |
You'll have to wait for head exploding tomorrow, then. You really aren't a very nice guy, yourself. | ||
| Ridrx |
Dj, I had the same result. Myth busted. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I read this whole thread over again and I have this urge to cry... | ||
| Scottsts |
From Roadracing World, October 2006: Incredible but true-you will find fewer suspension clickers on Valentino Rossi's YZR-M1 than you will on many tricked up R1's and GSXR's. As Rossi's Ohlins technician Mike NOrton says, "The extra clickers you get on road bikes are only there to sell them". Some years ago the racetrack fashion was for multi adjustability, so Ohlins factory suspension had three compression clickers and three rebound clickers (For low, medium and high speed damping) but the current MotoGP trend is for simpler suspension hardware. Rossi's 2006 Ohlins suspension uses just a single rebound and compression clicker on each suspension unit, which is less than some stock supersport bikes. | ||
| Slaughter |
To the question of setting SAG and whether damping settings affect SAG settings: The damping adjustments ONLY restrict the flow of oil in the shock (or fork) IF the damping adjusters were capable of totally STOPPING the flow of oil, you'd have something to be concerned about because you'd have a RIGID suspension. In that case, the bike would have been almost unrideable. ALL the damping adjustments do is change the RATE at which the suspension compresses or extends - it has NOTHING to do with how far it moves. DO NOT fool with the damping adjustments. They have no more effect on sag settings than the type of oil used in the forks or shocks - NO EFFECT. If you have a high dollar Ohlins or Penske with high and low speed damping, the damping adjustment STILL has NOTHING to do with sag adjustments. Arguing about the shocks as used by Rossi or (fill in the blank rider name) makes as much sense as saying "I've got Bridgestones, Hopper has Bridgestones, Hopper uses 24psi front, 22 rear - therefore I will use 24 and 22." OK now you all can resume the bickering. My head hurts and I haven't yet had my morning coffee here! |
