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Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 06:21 pm: | 
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I always find it interesting when the Roehr bike is brought into the discussion.
I don't normally think of a 120HP 425lb bike selling for $40,000 as a "competitor".
Seems like a solution looking for a problem. |
Thepup
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 06:54 pm: |
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"I always find it interesting when the Roehr bike is brought into the discussion.
I don't normally think of a 120HP 425lb bike selling for $40,000 as a "competitor".
Seems like a solution looking for a problem."
Ft bstrd,I don't think the Roehr is the competition at all,I was just making a point how easily one could outsource the parts to build their own sportbike. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 07:26 pm: |
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Yeah that was it... The torque thing. Yep... a couple IL4's make more torque than a Buell. My bad.
WRT the other two I don't remember saying that the XBRR has an "all new" chassis. It's pretty obvious that it's an "R" chassis with Ulysses frame rails.
On the USD forks thing... You sure I was "sure" about that or did I state it as something I thought "could" be the case?
In either one I don't really care. If I was wrong then I'm right now and that's the important thing  . Looks to me like the Ninja 650 muffler infringes on the Buell patent but MAYBE it's back far enough that it's no longer "under the engine" as such so it's ok... I don't know.
So run back on over to the Sac and tell everyone over there that you proved me wrong . I'm sure they'll all get a kick out of it .
You still don't understand the patents though. I get a kick out of that .
We're even . |
Dbird29
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 07:49 pm: |
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Lonnie,
Noticed that the SACBorg doesn't want this shit there either?
Erik |
Mikef5000
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 07:52 pm: |
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I take it everyone else has already givin up on this thread?
Ok, I'll leave too. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 08:35 pm: |
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>>>>but what company started out with a bike that was great out of the box.
Klein and Seven.
Next question. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 08:41 pm: |
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>>>>What a coincidence, I was in Portland for the Blues Festival
That's cool . . . I had that on my calendar and would have loved to have made it. My oldest son, an accomplished guitar player, lives in Portland.
The guy in the photo is Jeremy Ricker. He invited me to Portland where I met and rode with a group of engineers from Intel.
Jeremey had just bought the Gamma and somehow managed to get it past customs and registered coming from Canada.
They'd told me wild tales of this bike and sent me out on Skyline.
I'm riding in and lugging it along . . . thinking "where's the beef?" . . sounded like an Evinrude outboard and that was about all I was noting.
Then I wicked it up just a tad more and with zero warning WHAM.
The powerband is about 500RPM wide and comes on like gangbusters. . . it's like a jet kicking in.
Unfortunately the bikes power far exceeds its stoppapotamus. I saved it but darn near became a UFO off the side of a mountain road.
I gingerly returned the bike, recovered my Buell and tippy-toed away from the Gamma. . . it is everything I'd ever heard a 2 stroke race bike was!
Court |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 09:06 pm: |
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Ft bstrd,I don't think the Roehr is the competition at all,I was just making a point how easily one could outsource the parts to build their own sportbike.
I could build a superbike in my garage with 100% outsourced everything. It would be at 10 times the cost and half the competitiveness of production bikes.
Isn't that the trick, though? To get from garage to mass production?
Look at Buell generations. The tubers were the first real production ready models. Apples to apples they provided less for more.
1999 X1--MSRP $10,599
2002 X1--MSRP $10,895
2002 M2--MSRP $8,995
2007 XB12S--MSRP $10,495
2007 XB9R--MSRP $8,895
With each iteration, Buell is able to produce a better bike for less money. Much of that benefit is from volume. Much of it is also from outsourcing.
Outsourcing isn't the magic pill that would make Fisher or Roehr competitive. Both will have to surpass the economies of scale to cover fixed costs, R&D, etc.
The next iteration of Buell will provide the next level of benefit for price.
IMHO Fisher and Roehr are not even close to success. Neither is Cycz.
Success isn't in producing a motorcycle. Anyone can do that. Success is in producing a motorcycle that will sell in the marketplace, competitively.
This is why I believe Buell is on the verge of HUGENESS! Buell has survived the first two generations of production. They sold in spite of them being less competitive than other bikes from a pricing standpoint. The next generation will be competitive in both price and performance.
Were I Fisher, Roehr, Cycz or Ducati, KTM, Aprilia, or Triumph, I would be concerned.
Very concerned. |
Thunderheart
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 09:11 pm: |
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http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6561298.html?high light=656129,65612,6561298&stemming=on
There is the patent on the front braking system. |
Kyrocket
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 09:37 pm: |
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Speaking of jet bikes...
I would like to ride one of these just once. I'd also like to ride the Tomahawk just to say I did it but for 150,000 USD that Jet bike is pretty pricey. I read an interview with Leno about his and it sounds like you have to be on your A-game to keep it under control. He also melted a bumper cover while someone was trying to crowd at a light. Sorry, I know it's off topic but after reading everything else on here I figured what the heck |
Thepup
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 10:32 pm: |
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Fisher,Roehr and Cycz are really a non factor.Why should Ducati, KTM, Aprilia, or Triumph be concerned,if anything Buell should be concerned, every one of those manufacturers mentioned have brought out new bikes that the moto mags drool over,Buell has had the same bike for 5 years,so I doubt any of those manufacturers have anything to be concerned with. |
Wantxbr
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 10:38 pm: |
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I think M1 and Thepup need to meet up and Duke it out. That way they can get it out of their system so we all can read a post WITHOUT THE ARGUING.
This place was so peaceful before, now all the posts well some are filled with arguing about piddly B.S.
Who cares who is right and who is wrong the only thing that should matter is NEITHER ONE OF YOU CAN PROVE THE OTHER WRONG.
My $0.02 WAIT heres a nickel I may be back. |
Altima02
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 10:53 pm: |
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Uh-oh! Is that an underslung exhaust on the Y2K jet bike?!?! We may have problems here! |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:09 am: |
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Lonnie,
How much torque do you imagine is carried in a wheel spoke? Here's a hint... ZTL stands for Zero Torque Loading.
If you are qualified to comment on the issue as you seem to imagine you are, you will be able to sketch a free body diagram of a wheel spoke's critical design loading. Can you do that? This would take a sophomore engineering student about five minutes. I'll even help you estimate the loading. Use a thousand foot pounds of torque about the axle due to braking, with a thousand pounds of force acting fwd on the axle and 700 pounds acting downwards on the axle. Just a simple wheel spoke FBD. Can you do it? |
Thepup
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:35 am: |
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Blake,all I need is the same software that Buell and every other design firm uses.
"How much torque do you imagine is carried in a wheel spoke? Here's a hint... ZTL stands for Zero Torque Loading. "
Wow Blake,as smart as you are and you don't know what ZTL stands for?It's ZERO TORSIONAL LOAD ,pretty ironic isn't it. |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 07:41 am: |
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Semantics,give him a break.So none of that braking force is torsionally transmitted through the spokes aaayyy?
Of course there're ways around the ZTL idea.Like the $5500 i spent on Carbon fiber wheels and ceramic rotors.But i'll bet Buell's assembly don't cost nearly as much.Part of that is likely the wheels sourced from CHINA.But enough about that. |
Damnut
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 08:58 am: |
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Xbrad9r
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 02:59 pm: |
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the thing I find interesting about people like "Thepup" is that when you go to badweatherbikers.com, you don't immediately go to the forum you have to click the on the large Badweb banner that actually says "for Buell Motorcycle Enthusiasts". It does not say "for Buell Motorcycle Haters"
if you don't like Buells and have only negative input, start your own website and leave this one for the enjoyment and use of those that are real "enthusiasts". |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:28 pm: |
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"Blake,all I need is the same software that Buell and every other design firm uses."
You don't need software to draw a free body diagram. You need a piece of paper and a pencil... or you can just scratch it in the dirt with a stick. A free body diagram doesn't take any kind of math to draw, it's just a graphic representation of forces acting on a system. |
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:32 pm: |
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quote:the thing I find interesting about people like "Thepup" is that when you go to badweatherbikers.com, you don't immediately go to the forum you have to click the on the large Badweb banner that actually says "for Buell Motorcycle Enthusiasts". It does not say "for Buell Motorcycle Haters"
According to Thepup, he doesn't hate Buells at all, he likes them. If you read his posts and think that he doesn't like Buells it is because you are biased and merely reading your own meaning into his posts. |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:32 pm: |
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Here you go...
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/CLass/n ewtlaws/u2l2c.html |
Garrett2
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:34 pm: |
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i dotn think he hates them, but he sees flaws, whatever, no big deal |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:42 pm: |
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I'm not with the Kool-Aid drinkers, but the simple fact of the matter is... if you want to argue here, come prepared and loaded for bear. Don't argue with an empty head and an open mouth because you'll just wind up with your foot in it and your feelings hurt. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:49 pm: |
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I've got no problem with flaws... The XB isn't perfect.
I just take issue with people who can't seem to see anything else... |
Thepup
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 04:00 pm: |
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I really don't see any flaws in the Buell,it is what it is a low on HP ,torquey sportbike,but it gets a little old when certain people act like Buell is the be all end all.The XB line is not better than the competition,just different.Certain people make claims that are just false and when you call them out on it ,they scream "Buell Hater" and start with personal attacks,oh but don't get personal back,thats not allowed. |
Thepup
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 04:03 pm: |
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"I've got no problem with flaws... The XB isn't perfect.
I just take issue with people who can't seem to see anything else..."
M1,did I say there was anything wrong with the ZTL braking system,nope.I stated if there was as big advantage as some claim,other manufacturers would use it.My ZTL braking system works great on the street,as does the dual disc setup on my Yamaha. |
Thepup
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 04:09 pm: |
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Spike and Brad,where in this post did I bash Buell?I guess in your mind any questioning of Buell at all is bashing.I find it funny that most people that claim I am bashing Buell have had there Buell less time than I have had mine.I am a motorcycle enthusiast who has a Buell,not a brand loyal sheep that has never ridden any other bike,except maybe a H-D. |
Thepup
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 04:14 pm: |
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"I'm not with the Kool-Aid drinkers, but the simple fact of the matter is... if you want to argue here, come prepared and loaded for bear. Don't argue with an empty head and an open mouth because you'll just wind up with your foot in it and your feelings hurt."
DJ,seems to me the other people where the ones with the empty head and an open mouth.Do you get your feelings hurt because of an internet arguement,because I never have. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 04:24 pm: |
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So you think that the same old heavy dual disk configuration with the XTL wheel (Extra Torsion Loading) is just as good as ZTL? Hey if it seems just as good to you to carry around an extra six pounds of unsprung mass, that's your prerogative. Please just know that no competent mechanical/motorcycle/suspension engineer is likely to agree with you.
Then to claim that the Buell ZTL isn't anything special and use as evidence the fact that other manufacturers would be easily finding ways to get around the Buell patent and using it if it were, well, that's just plain wrong and ignorant.
Actually there is one very high end motorcycle effort that is co-opting the ZTL concept for their new ground-breaking superbike. Maybe you missed the concept drawing of the million dollar Spirit ES1 British Superbike designed by a couple of top Formula-1 engineers. It seemed to be using a copy of the Buell ZTL system albeit with a ceramic rotor for even less weight. The bike was advertised to be all about light weight and high performance, and they chose to use a ZTL front wheel/brake. Stupid F1 engineers. 
You are wrong; have the character to simply concede the point or at least drop it.
I don't think you are a hater. I think you enjoy belittling and naysaying, so much so that you are willing to dive into and pretend to be authoritative in subjects of which you know scant little. |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 04:34 pm: |
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"DJ,seems to me the other people where the ones with the empty head and an open mouth."
That was pretty much a blanket statement for everyone, but you seem to have taken it personally.
That figures. |
Thepup
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 04:54 pm: |
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"So you think that the same old heavy dual disk configuration with the XTL wheel (Extra Torsion Loading) is just as good as ZTL? Hey if it seems just as good to you to carry around an extra six pounds of unsprung mass, that's your prerogative. Please just know that no competent mechanical/motorcycle/suspension engineer is likely to agree with you. "
What part of what I said do you not understand,I said the ZTL works great for me on the street,but so does the dual disc setup on my Yamaha,never said which one worked better,just that they both work great for me on the street.
"Then to claim that the Buell ZTL isn't anything special and use as evidence the fact that other manufacturers would be easily finding ways to get around the Buell patent and using it if it were, well, that's just plain wrong and ignorant.
Actually there is one very high end motorcycle effort that is co-opting the ZTL concept for their new ground-breaking superbike. Maybe you missed the concept drawing of the million dollar Spirit ES1 British Superbike designed by a couple of top Formula-1 engineers. It seemed to be using a copy of the Buell ZTL system albeit with a ceramic rotor for even less weight. The bike was advertised to be all about light weight and high performance, and they chose to use a ZTL front wheel/brake. Stupid F1 engineers."
Blake,is this the same motorcycle engineering you claimed to be BS,but now you are trying to act like it is a high end bike design.Wow,Blake is there anything you won't try,at least try to use an example you didn't completely put down.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/406 2/283528.html?1181255487
I believe that is the link,is that the top end design you were talking about,as I said above you were less impressed with them then
"You are wrong; have the character to simply concede the point or at least drop it. "
How ironic Blake.
"I don't think you are a hater. I think you enjoy belittling and naysaying, so much so that you are willing to dive into and pretend to be authoritative in subjects of which you know scant little."
Blake I would love to just sit back and read posts on here,but I am going to comment when I see a post that is not true.Guess what,I do research before I post,and despite what you think I am a pretty intelligent person and I know how to do research,I am not going to blindly believe what you or the other Buell "experts" say,because you seem to spew a lot of propaganda.If Buell motorcycles are as great as you think,they need no misinformation to make them seem good. |
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