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Buell Motorcycle Forum » XBoard » Buell XBoard Archives » Archive through April 08, 2007 » Intimidated at first.... now I have questions « Previous Next »

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Ebuella_virus
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 01:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hello all,
Today, I went out and rode with a couple of friends in the twisties. Both of them are good riders, but I have spent a lot more time in the twisties than them and so am more comfortable with taking the turns a bit more spirited than they are. We stopped at an eatery up there in the mountains and a few guys that I had ridden with a long time ago showed up. One of them in particular, I had heard through the grapevine, has been getting really good and is really fast through the twisties. He rides a CBR1000RR. We got to talking for a bit and he just wanted to hook up with us since we were heading back the same way. I looked at his back tire and saw that he was using all of the tire and sliding the back a bit because the rubber was balling up into small bits. My XB12R's rear tire has an 1/8th of chicken strip on each side and doesn't ball up. Because I saw this, I was intimidated by him and I told him that I would follow him and if I was going too slow, to go ahead and take off. He took off through the twisties and, surprisingly, I was on his rear wheel the whole time. As a matter of fact, I could have passed him and probably pulled away from him through the canyon (he would eat me up on the straights of course) but didn't because I didn't want to seem like a jerk.

My question is, How is it possible that he rides the way he does and doesn't pull away from me in the corners? He gets lower than I do and he's hitting the gas harder than I do, but I would have expected him to easily pull away from me seeing how his tire was (fairly new Bridgestone on his BTW and I was running a Corsa III on the front and a Pilot on the back.)

Sorry for the long-windedness. Thanks
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Jmhinkle
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 01:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Buell's have a pretty short wheelbase, so you don't have to lean nearly as far to corner. In other words, he is working a lot harder and using everything available to him to get to where you are with 1/8 of contact patch left. You should have passed him mid corner on the outside and showed him how to really ride.
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Zynthaxx
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 01:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The angle of the bike is, as I'm sure you know, dependent not only on the speed of the bike, but also on a bunch of other factors, of which the rider's posture is one of the more important ones.
Also, if you're a bit familiar with racing, you know that cornering consists of a lot more factors than just getting hard on the throttle when exiting the corner. Good braking, the ability to read the track ahead, selecting a good line through the corner, and good throttle control are all equally important to having the highest possible exit speed - in fact, complete lack of chicken strips in combination with balled up rubber on the back tire on a street machine indicates a "Mr Oversteer" attitude to riding (lots of guts, less elegance and technique), imho.

But what do I know, I'm that guy that doesn't want to outride his line of sight when riding on public roads...
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Mortarmanmike120
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 02:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'm that guy that doesn't want to outride his line of sight when riding on public roads...
+1
Right on man!
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12r
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 05:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Your associate with the Fireblade must be a dreadful rider if you (no disrespect) could stay with him through the twisties on a Firebolt.

I rode a Fireblade last year and it's like a two-wheeled metronome; lean left, lean right, repeat. Honda's engineers have cleverly removed all the negative feedback associated with going fast and 100+ mph on a Fireblade is a happy place, much like 60 mph on my Firebolt. I rode the Fireblade on my favourite roads and it was at least 10 mph faster everywhere, no question. If I felt I was going too slowly, a nudge on the twistgrip is all it needed, it just reeled in the horizon like a missile without any drama or fuss.

The laws of physics dictate the Fireblade will need more lean angle than a Firebolt for any given corner but it's not a problem. The riding position on the Fireblade is less upright and more purposeful than the Firebolt so although it leans more, you don't notice it because you feel closer to the ground to start with.

Sadly by diluting the sensation of speed, the Fireblade is a rather uninvolving machine to ride on the road, unless you are an exceptionally talented motorcyclist or simply enjoy going fast in a straight line. The excitement and barrage of feedback offered by my Firebolt while cornering at 80 mph is fine by me
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Olinxb12r
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

He's shredding the crap out of his tires because he has around 180 HP! That is probably one of the main reasons it seems like he is going fast to everyone. Those are great bikes, but from what I've heard they are lacking the character I look for in a bike.
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Cycleaddict
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

soft tires & big H.P. = balls o' rubber . (the dude is on the edge of his rear tire's traction limit )
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Macbuell
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I used to get balls of rubber on the stock Dunlops after some spirited riding all the time. I don't see those balls of rubber on the Pirelli Diablos at all after just as hard or harder riding. Just saying, but maybe it's the tires.
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Spike
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Another big factor in the appearance of tire wear is tire pressure. At lower pressure the tire will flex more, build up more heat, and look more thrashed compared to a tire with more pressure. If you're running the same pace and your tires don't look as ragged, I would say he's probably running less tire pressure and just getting on the throttle harder on corner exits.
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Vanvideo
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Possibly he wore his tires down from time on a track? I have yet to visit my local track, but most guys who come back have their tires well worn. It's not as easy to get rid of those chicken strips on public roads - or so I'm told. My Buell's back tires are still squawkin'.
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No_rice
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

hey Macbuell, remember looking at my diablo's after running the dragon for awhile? it was folding the rubber over the edge of the tires, lol. the things still have a purple/blue tint to them. that was so much fun...
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Macbuell
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yup, I remember that. Great ride that weekend.
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Plag
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

He's a point and shoot rider...going in slow with too much lean angle (not getting far enough off of the machine to keep the bike more upright) and then powering out after he apexes. If he was truly fast his front tire would be balled up!!
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Ebuella_virus
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks for all the input all!

A Fireblade? I didn't know that the bike had a name...

Tire Pressure- This is true about this guy. Not the most DIY nor maintenance conscious guy. When he first got the bike a couple of years ago, he went with a loose chain and was sliding in the corners for some reason. We found out after a stop that his tire pressure was 10psi.

Track- he has not been on the track yet.

Tires- He's running Bridgstones. I have no experience on them. Just the Dunlops, and Michelin on the rear. I just put the Corsa on the front because I got a flat. (Although I look forward to putting a Corsa III on the back soon.

12r - I concur about the feedback and sensation on the Buell than on the other rockets.

Keep the input coming guys. The guy on the CBR called about 20 minutes ago and asked me how I was hanging onto him because he was dropping everyone else in his group (He observed my tires with the strips and no-balling up and so thought (as did I) he would out run me before we rode. We did not get a chance to talk 'til now because he peeled off after we hit town.
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Spatten1
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Fireblade is the Euro name for the CBRs.
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Ebuella_virus
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Aaaah, good to know Spatten1. Thank you
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Xl1200r
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Uhh...Excuse me?

All other things being equal (rider position, speed, curve, etc.), the wheelbase of a bike will not change the lean angle needed. If someone can back up the wheelbase claim, please post a link because I've never heard this argument before and can't find anything to support it.

The lean angle is dictated by the g-forces, and the riders position is the only thing that can alter the angle (which in effect doesn't really change the combined lean angle of the bike & rider).

That said, you should also know that not all tires have the same profile. Your tire on your bike may have more lean angle to give compared to his, which could explain why his look worn further to the edge.
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Dentguy
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sorry I don't have a link to post XL1200R, maybe you are looking at this the wrong way. The wheelbase can change lean angle. Think about it in an extreme case. Compare a bike with a five foot wheelbase to one with a ten foot wheelbase (chopper) going around a turn. Spreading the bike and rider weight out an extra five feet. The lean angle will have to be different as well as rider position to stay balanced. But, it could just be a different tire profile thing like you said. Not trying to argue.
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Body positioning could make a difference for sure.

I try to work more body lean in than bike lean. If the turn tightens up, I like to have a little extra lean angle to give.

Virus, I don't know how you ride, but you may have a similar style.

I have ridden with a couple of folks with no chicken strips. They had a "locked unit" riding style where they never moved off of the tank humper location.
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Disturbed
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I try to work more body lean in than bike lean. If the turn tightens up, I like to have a little extra lean angle to give.

And more traction available for braking if needed.
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Dentguy
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ft bstrd, I'm with you. I tend to use a lot of body lean also. Trying to keep as much tire contact as possible for grip. Once you get to that tire edge thats it. Virus, watch a Moto GP race. You will see two guys go through the same turn at the same speed with very different styles. Remember the more upright the bike is the more traction to accel.
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Ebuella_virus
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ft bstrd & Dentguy, I do tend to use body lean but have no idea, really, how far I am hanging off or how close my knee is to the ground. I've read a couple of books on the subject and have been following advice from them. Since reading them and "feeling" results, I go with how the bike handles, how it responds, and any adjustments I need to do. When I rode behind my friend, he doesn't hang off as much as he sticks out his knees and moves his shoulders into the inside of the turn. I have learned to use body lean because of the "reserve" of traction that it provides and the "just in case" scenario when I am coming out too wide out of a turn.

Sooooo..... what you are saying is that I am probably getting on the gas earlier because of a possible more upright bike (thus, I am sticking with him with no problem) and I am using more body lean/less bike lean (thus, the reason why I still have an 1/8th of chicken strip on either side of the tire). Sweet!!!

Thanks
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Lack of chicken strips is not necessarily a sign of a good rider. I've seen squids doing donuts in the local Target parking lot to scrub off their chicken strips.
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Ebuella_virus
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Good point Ft Bstrd.
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Chadhargis
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"If he was truly fast his front tire would be balled up!!"

Yeah...like the front tire on my Ulysses. : )





Of course, in all fairness, that was after a track day. : )

Note the "chicken strip" on my tire. I'm a BIG body position advocate. I could have leaned more, but my dang knees kept hitting the ground. LOL! : )

(Message edited by chadhargis on April 05, 2007)
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Tpoppa
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Think of the wheels as 2 points on an arc. The shorter the wheelbase the smaller (sharper) the arc.
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Plag
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Awesome Chadhargis!! Thats what I'm talking about! You know you are starting to carry good speed in the corners when you start to see this. Note he's not right out to the edge...saving room for "just in case".
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Chadhargis
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My rear tire is chewed up to the edge, but the front tire never gets that far over. I think it has to do with the profile of the Diablos. They are very "triangular" front tires.
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Plag
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

That little strip on the front disappears when you start upping the entrance speed on the turns and maybe a little trail braking. Track days on a street bike the wise always leave themselves a good 10% margin instead of pushing it right to their own limit where there is no room for the unexpected. Using that last little bit is best left for a track bike that you aren't so worried about keeping pretty. Personal experience ... I think it costs about $1500/revolution when you watch your bike flip through the grass...
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Ebuella_virus
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 01:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Plag,
Out of curiosity, do you mean that you have had your bike do more than one "revolution" as you watched it? How many times?

Yikes!
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Plag
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Used to race Superbike up here in Canada as a amateur and have unfortunately had the experience more than once. Low sided my R1 once at about 240kph (150mph) and watched it go over at least 4 times until I started doing the same...never ride without good gear!!
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Chadhargis
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 02:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Good gear is a must. I wear Alpinestars leathers and boots, Held gloves and back protector, and an Arai helmet.

Haven't gotten the full res pics yet, but here's a proof:

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/OrderPage.aspx?pi= 04RK008T010105&po=106&c=
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Ebuella_virus
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 07:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Nice pic Chad. There are some pretty cool pictures on that site. A lot more Buells that I would have expected.

I when it comes to back protection, I have the stocker in my Joe Rocket Speedmaster jacket. Do you think that that is enough or should I get another protector to put in there?
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Chadhargis
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My leathers did not come with a back protector. I got a good deal on a CE approved Held protector, so I bought it.

The cheesy foam ones that come with most jackets are better than nothing, but you want something with some hard armor in it too.
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The foam is supposed to be impact reactive. Soft forces keep it pliable, but hard impacts are supposed to compress it into a more stiff form.

I like hard plastic backed with reactive foam. I will be getting one soon. I have been thinking about it and decided at MBIV.
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