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Spatten1
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 11:05 am: | 
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Interesting that the dealers are seeing younger riders sell XBs quickly.
And yes, we do deserve our own niche bike. I like that we don't have to give up handling, but the engine makes it a totally different experience. Much more relaxing than a really high strung machine that is begging to be reefed on all the time. |
Ridrx
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 01:24 pm: |
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Last year I was going to buy a bike and decided I didn't want a repli-racer, so I test rode a Sporty. I think I rode it about a half a mile. LOVED the more mellow power but HATED the riding position and numbness associated with a "cruiser" type bike.
When I tested the XB I was in moto-love, I could have a mellow eng. AND strafe an apex. I think that test ride lasted about 30 miles. I was sold as soon as I made the first mile, just didn't want to get off of it. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 01:44 pm: |
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HATED the riding position and numbness associated with a "cruiser" type bike.
Yeah, every few years I get suckered by how good a cruiser looks. I always get dissapointed in how they turn and brake, but it is especially disconcerting to sit in a position where you have so little control over the bike. |
Ridrx
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 02:09 pm: |
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...disconcerting to sit in a position where you have so little control...
I think the key word is "sit" as in sit on it in front of the bar.
Who knows, maybe when I turn 60 that type of bike will appeal to me...but by then my back will already be hunched over, good natural posture for carving. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 03:11 pm: |
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Scott,
Rule #1 in sales is to set the price as high as the market will support. The idea is to make as much profit as possible, yes?
I see a lot of used Buells being sold by folks who don't seem to care what they get for their used Buell or need to sell in a hurry and so they sell it for a price that seems too low to me.
It took me a few months, but back in 2003 I sold my 2000 M2 Cyclone, a stock bike except for the Bartels intake and some carb tuning, for $5400. I paid $7900 for it brand new. It had around 18K miles on it and had been kept outside and ridden in the rain. It was in good condition, but it needed a new speedo sensor and the new primary chain tensioner upgrade.
I don't know about your's, but my Buell sure ain't "slow." In fact it is a heck of a lot faster than my previous non-Buell motorcycle.
Plenty of accidents and deaths occur on motorcycles with a lot less capacity for speed than a Buell V-Twin. In fact, I'd wager that most rider-at-fault motorcycle accidents are on machines with less power and lower top speed than our Buells.
Absent even the bikini-fairing, mine'll do 140+ MPH (stock gearing hitting 7000 rpm rev limit set on Dyna 2000 ignition module). With a full fairing and a gearing adjustment, I'm thinking that it could hit 160 mph.
Which reminds me, who hasn't posted on the Buell in the TT thread yet in the Racing - Road/Circuit Racing section? Please offer up some support for that effort. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 03:56 pm: |
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Equilibrium |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 04:00 pm: |
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Rule #1 in sales is to set the price as high as the market will support. The idea is to make as much profit as possible, yes?
There is unit profitability, and total profit. So, if you sold at a lower price and sold more units you might make more total profit. There is a point of diminishing returns, but I don't know if Buell is there. If Buells sold for a lower price, they might sell enough units to a more mainstream buyer group to make more total profit. I don't know what their fixed costs and variable costs are. I do think the bike is overpriced for a value based consumer with no brand loyalty. As a consumer I don't care if HD has high production costs. I see a bike with suspension on par with $11,000 literbikes, but an older engine that should have much of the tooling amortized by now, and certainly does not have the $250MM of R&D that a Japanese firm spends every three years for its flagship bikes. Therefore it should sell for less, based on value.
Most motorcycle consumers do believe that the XBs are slow. That is what really matters to the factory, not what this small enthousiast group believes.
At our Buell riders group meeting last Sunday I sat next to a guy with an XB12, ZX10R, and RC51. I asked how the Buell compares in the canyons. He said he likes riding it best, but, and I quote: "The only bike that a Buell will beat is another Buell." These are not my words, but they do come from an avid XB fan that puts a lot of miles on his Buell. |
Ulendo
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 07:06 pm: |
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reading through all this, something came out that I hadnt thought of before.
re: cruisers, there were a few disparaging comments, but the missed point was that to riders here, those bikes dont have much value, and one of us selling one would likely set the price low. Conversely, most folks on here would not willing sell their Buell unless they needed either space, or cash, so the price would be high.
point is, most of the Buells for sale used are flogged, or from guys who've decided is not their type of riding, thus they put a low value on the bikes. The race replica crowd seem to value THIS YEARS toy, and change regularly, but because they're intend on the niche, they price them high, assuming others see it the same way. Sports cars can pull a similar premium price....but does that make them higher quality, or a good buy?
As for prices - anyone looked at the price of, say, the new BMW F650X's, or Aprilia SVX....different emphasis on technology, but Buell pricing doesnt look too bad to me. ( might be putting my foot in it - Due to free trade vs german import taxes, the new BMW X bikes here are about the same price as my CityX) |
Buellinachinashop
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 07:02 pm: |
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The comment on the bikes not selling is true. HD has way too many of their Vrods sitting around. My buddy just got his 07 with chrome and bags for 12.8. That's only 2300.00 more than a XB12 with accessories included.
If Buell wasn't selling, they'd be lower and so would used bikes. I paid 3500.00 for an 03 9SL with 6k, a tank bag and the race ecu. The bike was dropped once at 15 mph and has minor cosmetic damage. I thought that was a decent price. If you feel in your head that the price is fair, that's all that matters. If you're second guessing a price, don't buy it. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 09:56 pm: |
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You got a smoking price! |
Cgocifer
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:25 am: |
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I bought my previous bike, an R6, off the showroom floor back in 2002 for $8000. I sold it in 2005 with 8k miles on it for 6500. I had a ton of fun for $1500. As for the Buell, I knew resale wasn't the greatest so I found a nearly brand new 2004 XB12s with 1,200 miles on it in early 2006 for $6300 with a partial factory warranty. Not that that mattered though, because I took it home and put a Jardine can on it, a race ECU, and filter. I've since done all kinds of customizing to it and still haven't spent what a brand new one would have cost me. Buy used (if you know what to look for and how to look for it) and let somebody else pay for the depreciation. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:50 am: |
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Last year I was looking for an inexpensive used Japanese sportbike for the track, and could not find a good deal. Even ragged out bikes were holding value exceptionally well. I gave up.
I think that the last couple of generations of bikes have become so good that even a 5 year old bike will do nearly anything you want it to, other than win national level races.
A guy in our Buell club bought a 2006 ZX10R brand new off the showroom floor for $9500 out the door a few months ago. If he sells it in the next few years he won't take much of a hit at all. It dyno'd at 162 or 172 HP at the rear wheel (can't remeber). If a new model comes out with 5 more HP, it really won't matter to anyone but racers.
(Message edited by spatten1 on April 05, 2007) |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:00 am: |
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Maybe Buells are like luxury cars in the re-sale market. Buyers are older and want a new bike, and can afford it. Less cache for a used bike, and less demand by the Buell buyers.
Practical value buyers that look for used bikes may be paying for utility and performance. For example, an XV650 with suspension mods (most used ones seem to have them) will run with a Buell, and they are cheap.
Unless you have brand loyalty or love the HD engine, there is no reason to pay a lot more than you would for the XV.
For those of us that do really have an affinity for the Buell package, it seems like much more of a motorcycle than an XV650. However, if you are only looking for utility and performance for the dollar, there is not that much of a difference. |
Grlryder
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:16 am: |
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Founds this interesting. Kelly Blue Book shows...
Retail on 2005 Buell...
XB12R $7260
XB12S $7260
XB12Scg $7985
Trade...
XB12R $5025
XB12S $5025
XB12Scg $5535
While Im not complaining, what would make the Scg $725 more valuable than the other 12s? Demand? Not as many on the market? |
Cgocifer
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:38 am: |
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Again, there's nothing like the feeling of buying a brand new car or bike off the showroom floor and knowing it's all yours. I've purchased many of both brand new in the past including my 2005 G35 Coupe (I ordered it in 2005 from the factory and had to wait 3 months to get it). I've learned though, that it is a much, much smarter decision to purchase a perfect condition one-owner, used vehicle instead. The second you drive or ride a vehicle off the lot, you've lost almost 15% of it's value. Cars and bikes are so good these days, that you don't really have to worry about reliability issues unless it was completely neglected (there are signs to look for). I found my Buell with 1200 miles, all manuals, all original, and I paid 6300 bucks. I love the bike and the fact that I paid so little for it. It was practically brand new for over 4000 less than a showroom floor model!! I invested the difference and used some of it for upgrades and custom parts. Both cars and bikes are huge depreciating assets that should be purchased not for investment purposes (except collector and rare items), but for emotional enjoyment. You will lose money, but the question is, how much? |
Buellinachinashop
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 03:22 pm: |
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CG...you hit it perfectly. I'd like to add that boats are just as bad, but thankfully the price of aluminum just went up making buying a new boat about 3-4k more expensive over the previous year (depending on size). Because of that I sold my boat for a little more, got my 03 Sl and will have money to spare for new tires and parts.
I love the smell of a new truck, I hate the sight of an empty wallet.
(Message edited by buellinachinashop on April 05, 2007) |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:35 am: |
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"Unless you have brand loyalty or love the HD engine, there is no reason to pay a lot more than you would for the XV."
Sure there is. The fully adjustable suspension is one. Superiour finish and quality of the bike is another. Two year warranty is another. Much reduced periodic maintenance is another. Better fuel mileage is one more. The lack of a big ugly radiator and associated plumbing and spewage receptacles is another. Artistry of the motorcycle is another.
If one's primary criteria for purchasing a sport bike is optimum HP/cc or $/HP, then a Buell is not the motorcycle one should be considering.
Rest assured that no SV650 is likely to ever make it into the Art of the Motorcycle exhibit.
They are good motorcycles for sure, but they aren't on the same planet as a Buell XBike when it comes to artistry or quality.
Ever price out a fully adjustable suspension, front and rear, and the labor to install it? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 07:40 am: |
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I've ridden a few SV's, and while they are good bikes and I recommend them as a good cheap standard, they ain't no XB. And beyond maintenance, they are pretty expensive to drop as well. |
Kdan
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:13 am: |
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We love our SV650. It's a good basic bike, but like Blake says, price the suspension upgrade neccesary to make it somewhat substantial in the twisties. They suck stock, but with a few mods, they can be very capable little bikes. Given the choice, I'll ride my XB9S everytime.
Reepicheep, only if you drop an Sv650s. You can drop the standard all day and as long as you have the frame sliders, nothing but mirrors and levers!! |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:38 pm: |
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I had a buddy with an SV650 (early round frame, non S). He had a lowside very similar to one I had on my Cyclone, maybe even slower.
My Cyclone? Prop the bike up, bend the clutch lever back into place, and ride off. I replaced the clutch lever out of guilt, but could have bent it straight again. The napolean bar end mirror got a new radius, but was otherwise fine as well. I was amazed.
The SV has everything on the right side of the back hacked up, I helped him fix it. Tank, bars, exhaust can, etc. It seemed like just about everything on that side of the bike got some damage. Nothing that made it unusable, but it all had some visible marks.
Granted, that is a datapoint of "1" so its highly anectdotal.
Would the frame sliders have helped with all those bits? I should tell him to get some.... for the other side 
It's a good bike though, and I would highly recommend one for someone as a different (and good) price / performance point then the XB. |
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