| Author | Message | ||
     Macbuell |
I'm starting to do some research and budget planning into possibly doing some engine work on my bike. I'm looking for some help, opinions, and experiences from my fellow Buellers regarding the different options out there. Specifically, I'm looking at a Big Bore kit and was wondering what is the difference between a 1250cc Bolt-On Kit and 1250 Stage 2 Kit and a 1250 Stage 3 Kit, besides cost. I obviously am looking to boost the power and performance of my bike but I do not want to sacrifice reliability. Will that be an issue? Those that have experience or knowledge of these things, any information you can provide regarding expected performance gains, reliability, etc, will be appreciated. I'm not interested in have the cases bored but if that is a severe limiting factor regarding a power upgrade, I'd be willing to consider it as long as reliability isn't adversely affected. Thank you. Just in case anyone was wondering, I did look in the Knowledge Vault and found very little in term of helpful information there. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Mac, Stage 1, 2 and 3 are going to depend on who does the work, but in general - A "bolt-on" 1250 is cylinders and pistons only (and the stuff to make it all work). Stage 2 and 3 is probably going to include differeing levels of headwork and cam upgrades. Personally, if there are not a lot of miles on the bike, I'd skip the 1250 kit and just do heads and cams. Keep in mind if you decide that boring the cases is alright wiht you, you can get somethling like 1450cc out them. | ||
| Macbuell |
My bike only has about 3,000 miles on it right now. That being the case, you'd recommend boring the cases to 1450cc? Would this affect engine life and reliability at all? | ||
| Hogs |
Macbuell, Scape the ideal of going to 1450 no one out there has come up with the Ecm programing and fuel system to make this work PERIOD!!! | ||
| Terribletim |
I can tell you a little tip from my Harley experiences. The bigger you go with these engines, the less reliable they get. I'm not knockin' Buell or anything like that, I'm just statin' what I have observed. My wife's bike is bone stock and runs like a champ. I'm talkin' riding it to Sturgis and back twice, it ain't no trailer queen. My Harley has had what I call mild work done, and the same kind of riding, I've had my share of problems. My buddy's bike is really worked over, and spends plenty of time on the bike lift. I know these are Harley's I'm talkin' 'bout, but a Buell engine ain't that different. Ask yourself how reliable you want your bike to be. If you don't mind added maintenance, look into a 1250 kit. Your dealer should be able to explain what you need and why. If they can't, go to one who can or call one of the sponsors on here. Once you have all the info on what it will take you can look at the cost and really make the decision. Just my input and opinion, take it for what it is. My Buell is stock on the whole drivetrain, and it's just a 9r. Besides, I'm all about looks anyway! | ||
| Terribletim |
Oh, some input on the different kits. We did a stage 2 on the wife's Harley so here is what I know. Stage 1 = Air Cleaner & Ignition kind of upgrade. Stage 2= Stage 1 + Exhaust Stage 3 = Stage 2 + Pistons & Cams That is the word from the motor company, hope it helps you understand what they offer. Like I said, talk to the dealer about what you want and they can help you make a decision as to which way to go. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Oh, some input on the different kits. We did a stage 2 on the wife's Harley so here is what I know. Stage 1 = Air Cleaner & Ignition kind of upgrade. Stage 2= Stage 1 + Exhaust Stage 3 = Stage 2 + Pistons & Cams That is the word from the motor company, hope it helps you understand what they offer. Like I said, talk to the dealer about what you want and they can help you make a decision as to which way to go. Tim, the typical stage 1 on a harley is Air Cleaner, exhaust and a rejetted carb or remapped ECM. Regardless, stage kits for big bore kits are not the same thing. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Macbuell, Scape the ideal of going to 1450 no one out there has come up with the Ecm programing and fuel system to make this work PERIOD!!! I beg to differ - there are a couple 88" XBs on this site, and knowing these guys I'd bet anything they were running top notch. http://www.nrhsperformance.com/dynoroom.shtml As far as reliability goes, displacement is not what affects it. Things like piston speed, piston weight and valvetrain setup affect it. If you do a mild big bore kit, the valvetrain will stay well within reliable limits, the piston speed will not change since the stroke is not affected, and the piston weight may very well go DOWN from a stock piston to and aftermarket big bore. | ||
| Hogs |
Xl1200r, If you look at that site you will SEE its on a 1996 Sportster and its got what a CARB.... not fuel injection theres a big difference there to say the least..!!! yes I have talked to them as well and the fuel injection system for the 88 is not set up for the 88 now if ya go to the 1250 thats a different story seems alot have had good results on the STREET and Track but the 1450 kit well I have been asking this question for over 2 years now and no one can give me answers, so stay with the 1250 kit if ya want to go with a bigger bore... IF anyone can give me names of people that I can contact with XB`s 1450/1500 kits on the Street and have tested these to be A OKAY then lets here the names now??? (Message edited by hogs on March 08, 2007) | ||
| Xl1200r |
Hog - There's like 34 different dyno plots on that link I posted. 4 of which are XB Buells, and one has the 88" kit on it. | ||
| Hogs |
I rest my Case then!  To the poster of this thread you say " My bike only has about 3,000 miles on it right now. " I wd, say ride that baby for another 30,000 miles and then IF ya decide you "want" or "need" more power then look at your options. (Message edited by hogs on March 08, 2007) | ||
| Neb25 |
Hogs, Give Brian at Rrevtech a call they can do a 90" xb motor. They use the Direct Link system to manage the fuel injection. I just went through this with them but went a different direction with my track bike. They were talking around 125-135 RWHP. You could PM me if you like and we could discuss. | ||
| Josh_cox |
We are currently building a 90" XB12SS. It will be fuel injected, and the package is built to be a street bike. If you'd like to ride it and see what you think of the 90" setup, come ride it at our event in July. It is going to be a performance demo bike for our shop. There is nothing wrong with 90" for a street bike, you just need to make sure the mods all work with each other, and you expect with more power, there will be some additional wear. More details on the event: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/406 2/260627.html?1172678518 Josh | ||
| Xl1200r |
I rest my Case then!  What was your point then? Did you not say an 88" motor won't work because there is no solution for the fuel injection? Did I not just show you at least one that seemed to work ok? I'm not clear what your point was, but mine is simple. If you want big bore, you may as well go big bore. 50cc is not going to make that big of a difference when you're starting out with 1200. If down the road you have a bunch of miles and it's getting time to tear the engine down, you may as well go 1250 since it's a bolt-on thing. But if he wants the power now, why should he have to wait until he has 30,000 miles on the bike? If I had a few grand laying around, I woudln't think twice about cracking open the motor on my bike the day I got it. | ||
| Ducxl |
I can tell you a little tip from my Harley experiences. The bigger you go with these engines, the less reliable they get. I'm not knockin' Buell or anything like that, I'm just statin' what I have observed +1 .....What a headache... | ||
| Xl1200r |
^^ Can you attribute this 100% to the increase in displacement? I would say it is more likely a result of things that tend to go with higher displacement, like valvetrain components and compression ratio. | ||
| Terribletim |
Yea, I'm gonna agree with Xl1200r there, I would say that the difficulties come from the added piston speed of the longer stroke, the large increase in compression ratio and maybe in the case of my buddy's bike, the HUGE cam he runs. I know enough about engines to say those would be the factors, not the "increased displacement". I know the added wear on my Harley comes from the larger compression ratio. Tell you what though, a 90" 9r has some appeal to me! Not sure I could keep from killing myself, but what a way to go!  | ||
| Ducxl |
Can you attribute this 100% to the increase in displacement? yes+no... mine was a 1987XL the first generation evo XL. As soon as i finished machining/assembling the 89 inch kit it began shorting the stator.Which on the first gen XL was behind the clutch basket...over and over again.It also had a nasty habit of shearing the spline off of the final drive sprocket.The Branch heads etc. worked fine tho. All the problems were downstream of the crank | ||
| 46champ |
I can confirm the problems down stream of the crank. I have an 86 XL that was my drag bike. clutches are a consumable part about like buying oil. Transmission parts, gears and shafts wore out,all thou this could be attributed to the air shifter more than the88" kit. When it was a 1200 I washed the bike and went racing. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Ducxl - yeah, I can't comment on how the extra power would effect the rest of the driveline. More power is power despite how you get it, so that does make sense that these parts would wear faster. Tim - And when you take into account that aftermarket big-bore pistons are usually lighter than the stock ones, you're actually putting less stress on the bottom end of the engine. | ||
| Terribletim |
Xl1200r - I agree, lighter pistons would be less strain. Keep in mind what 46champ said, more strain on downstream stuff, clutch, trans gears (broke one of mine) drive belt/chain (broke my belt clean in two on a hard launch, darn new tires!), etc. Just general accelerated wear, but you have to keep it in mind. And while the pistons would weight less, does it offset the strain added by the increased speed of a longer stroke? Something to think about I guess. Ducxl - I run Branch heads on my Harley, good stuff, huh? | ||
| Hogs |
Xl1200r, There's more to it than ya think Buddy, I `m just giving buddy some heads up, You or no one has address the needs for a different fuel pressure regulator, Throttle body/injectors, Lower end case Bearings the list goes on, I know of a couple of guys here on this forum that have went that route and had nothing but plms. going with a 1450/1500 kit... Not mentioning any names So each to their OWN Period, I agree there's no sense to take a good working 12 apart to go an extra 50cc`s that's a waste... NOW the xb9`s have had good luck going with the 1250 kits etc.. Just trying to stop someone from going in over their HEAD.... | ||
| Xl1200r |
Hogs - I don't want to discount anything you say if you have examples to back it up. What kinds of problems are these folks running into? Are you saying for certain that the XB12 fuel injection hardware is not up to the task? I would imagine there's a higher flow fuel injector out there that will fit our intakes, and the throttle body can be bored some if neccesesary. Is this what you're getting at? | ||
| Xl1200r |
My other post must have gotten deleted or something, so I'll recap. Tim - the nice thing about a big-bore kit is the stroke remains unchanged. To change the stroke, you would need to buy a stroker kit - hence the names  So, with an unchanged stroke, piston speed stays the same as well (unless you go upping the rpm limit). | ||
| Hogs |
Yes throttle bore can be bored thats a given, I think alot has to do with the ECM and Cruise mode along with other stuff that I for one am not up to speed on for the 1450/1500 big bore`s as ya know going from a 9 to say a 1250 thats not that big of a difference just 50 cc`s ( over say a stock 12 ecm ) but when ya throw some Huge pistons 1500 in which the ecm was never designed for that seems to be where the plms. lay and Direct link has not solve these here yet as far as I have heard... I have talked off and on to a couple of the suppliers with these kits as well as ppl. who have done and to date I don`t know anyone out on the STREET with any miles on their bikes that can say HEY does this work well and they have got a couple of thousand miles on it or so or more on the street.. Thats all I am getting at.. Theres a whole lot more when it comes to going BIG 1450/1500 Besides what I mentioned already.. perhaps more can post in here on this..I`m all EARS...! | ||
| Xl1200r |
Hogs - I agree, but I was unaware that the Direct Link stuff was unable to compensate for the larger displacement. I would think that a combination of higher flow injectors and a longer fuel pulse would be able to make the gap. I'm all ears because I'm interested, though like I said, my "dream" engine turns out to be 1200cc anyways... | ||
| Terribletim |
Ya, I'd be curious to hear from a few who have gone that route. You would think there would be enough aftermarket parts out there to cover it. Xl1200r - I guess my question about the stroke wasn't specific enough. I meant in the case of a stroker, would it offset the benefit in weight. I'd be curious to see some definitive numbers as to whether it would or not. You would think it wouldn't, but I don't know. |
