| Author |
Message |
    
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 03:59 pm: | 
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I don't think a belt is as efficient as a chain. In some circumstances, such as with chains running in an oil bath, a dry belt may be more efficient. American V-8 engines built for racing have belt conversions for their timing chains for this very reason. BUT... belts have a lot more contact area (significantly more) than a roller chain does and there is more friction associated with the belt feeding itself on and off the pulley's. It all comes down to contact area and friction.
It's really hard to beat a chain for efficiency in transfering power. |
Vonsliek
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 11:03 pm: |
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hard to argue w/ THAT logic .. i did some uni physics & YES, u r correct!
& what is a by-product of friction? heat, of course .. & what bad things does heat do to rubber? changes the compound structure & hence durabilty/reliability! |
Mortarmanmike120
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 05:18 am: |
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Chain Rules, I love mine so far.
BTW, auto engineers DO NOT design the BEST. They DO design the most cost effective and marketable within guidelines dictated by agencies such as the EPA. That is why not every buell leaves the factory with a Drummer. Or with carbon fiber body. Or with magnesium wheels, etc... They make what they can market and sell within allowable cost. NOT necessarily the best. I'm sure there are advantages to a belt, and Buell decided to play up to those advantages. I decided to give them up in exchange for the advantages of chains.
THANKS Saintly.... you da man! |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 05:28 am: |
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does anyone know how/where i can get hold of the axle adjuster/holder blocks for the swingarm that i can then have welded into place to have a chain setup that is like the HALS one, yet not the so cutely put *spendy* amount they want??!!
I think the original 'factory' swingarms for the XB had the adjusters from an M2/X1 welded into the XB swingarm.
There are at least two different chain kits available that do not need the adjusters though, soyou can save yourself the expense and trouble of welding them in.
The Free Spirits kit is just one such kit and uses an adjustable idler wheel to make chain adjustments. These kits also have the advantage of keeping a constant wheelbase regardless of sprocket size/chain adjustment, and of keeping the origoinal structural integrity of the swingarm. If you cut and weld the swingarm it will be weaker than it was before. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 10:10 am: |
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"BTW, auto engineers DO NOT design the BEST. They DO design the most cost effective and marketable within guidelines dictated by agencies such as the EPA."
Agreed.
Also:
Let's not forget that engineers are only people, and often very black and white thinkers that will not let go of an idea or concept that they believe should be the best. I've worked with many great engineers, but I've also worked with lousy ones and quixotic ones that would go to the end of the earth to prove a point.
I guess I'm trying to say that just because an engineer designs something, it is not perfect. With the belts, it is Buell's responsibility to test in real world conditions and do proper QC, no matter what the vendor promises. This is especially the case when the Company is going against conventional thinking, as all other sportbikes have chains (albiet most of them also make more power).
(Message edited by spatten1 on January 04, 2007) |
Williboyny
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 12:31 am: |
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MY belt is still rockin. I love my belt drive...but it has never left me stranded. Harley, Buell, and every automaker today uses thorough quality documentation that defines (before the first production-like part is made) the who, what, where, when (or how often), and why for every detail of design, specification, manufacture, inspection, and control. A major document in that bundle is the Potential Failure Modes Effect Analysis, a PFMEA. On a PFMEA, a "walk-home" failure is a Severity=8. On a scale of 1-10, a 1 doesn't affect form fit or function. A 10 kills somebody. Buell recognizes the severity of a belt failure and builds to the balance of safety/economics/quality that is reasonable. In all likelyhood, the belt is a designed weak link in the system.
As a manufacturing engineer for Tier 1 supplier:
I am responsible for the manufacture of a few Harley components (not design, material selection, or any other spec), and I believe Harley (not necessarily Buell) does a good job working with Suppliers and demanding quality parts. I'll give Harley another thumbs up and say that they are willing to make changes to their parts and designs when it makes a better part for both their supplier and themselves. That is better in my book than any other automotive supplier I work with.
If Buell operates in the same manner we can expect improvements will be made to the fit, form, and function of the belt.
Happy Buelling to all.
-Matt
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Diablobrian
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 12:56 am: |
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There have been upgrades made to the belts along the way, they just haven't gotten
things refined enough for the belts to be as durable as a chain under normal use and...
(perhaps just as importantly) handling.
Many failures have been blamed on improper handling even prior to installation on the bike,
like during tire and bearing changes. |
Vonsliek
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 01:08 am: |
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matt .. i will look at this free spirits item & decide .. i have NO problem w/ the wheelbase .. i LOVE the trick look of the welded s/arm, but in reality .. i am FAR from being good enough to require more .. i have yet to use slicks .. ;P
paul. |
Aj06bolt12r
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 05:08 am: |
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I cant believe the fact that some fellow buellers choose to install a chain on their bike is cause for a heated arguement. So what if they want to run a chain even though buells come off of the assembly line with a belt, why does that hurt any ones feelings? The chain is not hurting the bikes ability to do what it was designed for, the buell race bikes run a chain for Gods sake, no one is yelling at them for trying to "be like every other bike" or something. I say if you want to run a chain so what? If you have some kind of religious attachment to running a belt so what? Ill run my belt untill it breaks or looks like it is going to (hopefully never) when and if that happens Ill join the chain gang too. I doubt very much if that would hurt Mr. Buells feelings. |
Mikexlr650
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 02:45 pm: |
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maybe willyboy hit on something here, designed in weakpoint. maybe the belt protects the rest of the drivetrain from certain types of shock and loading that a chain would not dampen out. remember daytona? |
Jwhite601
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 03:09 pm: |
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"maybe willyboy hit on something here, designed in weakpoint. maybe the belt protects the rest of the drivetrain from certain types of shock and loading that a chain would not dampen out. remember daytona?"
Actually the opposite is true, there are several members on here that have converted after having tranny bearing problems with the belts. Correct me if im wrong. |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 03:19 pm: |
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You know, I once considered doing a Chain conversion, but after mulling it over a while, I actually like the belt drive. It feels like a more direct power response. I will admit that my past bikes were chain driven (Duc 900ss, and an MZ) Had a Vstar but that was shaft driven. So, in my heart of hearts I am fond of the chain, but... I don't know. I really like the feeling I get with the belt drive. I know that a few of your ideas are skewed by having your belt(s) break, and that sucks. But, I'm not 100% sure on this but if Buell says that these belts are lifetime belts now, then if they break they should be a free replacement. I feel. I could be allowing the fox in the hen house on this one, but, you don't put the words lifetime on it unless you decide to stand by it. Think Snap-on, Craftsman, etc.
That's how I see it.
Mark |
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