| Author | Message | ||
     Spatten1 |
One thing you can all count on is that Polaris builds what the market wants. That is why they have been successful in watercraft, ATVs, and cruisers (after a slow start). Polaris is also smart enough to leverage KTM engineering. HD needs to do something similar, in my opinion. All I've seen from HD in the way of engine engineering is the V-Rod. Heavy, large, and less power than a 1985 V-Max. It will be really tough to change from a culture that is rewarded for stopping oil leaks and boring/stroking more every few years and adding counter-balancers. There is not a serious HP culture at HD in the engineering department (not with experience building competitive high-horsepower sportbike engines like the competitors do). There really shouldn't be, it doesn't sell their bikes: sound, feel, and image do. That said, HD should be very careful to not build a flop or unreliable engine for the first liquid cooled sportbike. The reputation is just getting on track now, it would be a shame to be too proud to get outside help and miss the mark. It would take Buell 10 years to recover. Just an opinion of an ex-motorcycle mechanic and avid sportbike fan, one with little brand loyalty. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
HD should be very careful to not build a flop or unreliable engine for the first liquid cooled sportbike. The reputation is just getting on track now, it would be a shame to be too proud to get outside help and miss the mark. It would take Buell 10 years to recover. Well said...reliability must be priority number one. | ||
| Anonymous |
Guys, Just as a reminder, the first Buell model was water-cooled. And folks who have read this board closely, as well as some media mentions, should know that Erik Buell started the V-Rod motor program for H-D as a motor for Buell, but had to step aside when the corporation decided the motor should become a big cruiser motor proportioned appropriately for a 66" wheelbase bike. Erik was also very much involved in the early days of the VR-1000, and some day that story will come out, complete with pictures and notes. This should tell you he wants one, but won't do it until he can do it right. And it won't be a replacement for the air cooled, but an expansion of the appeal of Buell. Some day you will see it, and it won't be something out of character for Buell. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
But I wanted to get my "Wankel" on! | ||
| Teddagreek |
It's long been founder Erik Buell's dream that his range of around 20,000 Buell sportbikes currently produced each year should be topped by a full-on liquid cooled V-twin superbike comparable to anything produced in Italy or Japan, as a modern update to HD's abortive VR 1000 60 degree V-twin. Now, more than one U.S. source insists that Buell has been working on just such a bike for the past two years, and is set to launch it in the marketplace as a 2007 model-with a race ready spinoff for privateer purchase. Whether this is a 1000cc bike comparable to the existing Ducati 999R, or has been designed from the start as a 1200cc model set to take advantage of the expected change in Superbike rules both at world level and, most crucially, for the AMA series, is unclear as of yet. But the chance of an all American motorcycle racing competitively in both the AMA and World Superbike series in the future will surely add luster to the category,as well as providing both american and overseas buyers with an appealing alternative to European V-twin sportbikes for the customer dollar-or pound, or Euro, or yen. That will especially be the case in Japan, where Buell has established itself as a trophy brand whose strong selling products are esteemed by Japanese sportbike customers. Watch this space for more details as they become available-but from the number of different sources all outlining the same scenario, this one looks to be a runner.-Alan Cathcart Cycle News | ||
| Rocketman |
Just as a reminder, the first Buell model was water-cooled. Based on Suzuki architecture and designed originally by two Brit's, Barry Hart and Graham Dyson (Barton Engineering). Just a heads up. Credit where credit's due  Rocket | ||
| Spatten1 |
"This should tell you he wants one, but won't do it until he can do it right. And it won't be a replacement for the air cooled, but an expansion of the appeal of Buell. Some day you will see it, and it won't be something out of character for Buell." Here here!!! Historically: My guess would be that Erik Buell's dream bike is often confused with the comprimises imposed by the political and fiscal realities of the parent company. The XB is one heck of a bike, but reality nearly always dictates a compromise of the origninal unfettered dream. Anyone that has worked for a large company will have experienced that. Future: I can't wait to see what eventually comes out. Good to hear that it is a goal, but will only be done the right way in due time. It would be better for Polaris to be first, then for Buell to do it the Buell way and do it really well. I believe that there is a big niche out there that has yet to be addressed. Triumph and Ducati have carved out fantastic niches by addressing consumer "wants", and Buell could hit a big swath of the motorcycling public with a higher performance engine that retains American characteristics. Lots of room out there. | ||
| Buellshyter |
I think it was a stroke of genius that the MoCo acquired Buell and broadened their customer base. It was a stroke of genius when Mr. Buell tied his fortunes to HD. Why are so many of you reluctant to change? If I didn't know better, I'd bet I was at an AARP convention listening to a bunch of old geezers pining away for the good old days. I believe there is enough room under the tent for all, including the water cooled crowd. Two things strike me, on the surface, in regards to Erik Buell. One, he likes his music and, two; he wants Buell to be involved competitively in racing. Now - if he can accomplish that with an air cooled motor then more power to him but if the engineering requires water cooled I'm betting he wouldn't give it a second thought. There appear to be a few "insiders" on this board, why doesn't someone ask him. I believe there have been enough signs to indicate a new model is forthcoming - soon. It's fun to speculate and let your imagination run wild and besides, what else do us cold weather bound easterners have to do? | ||
| Bikertrash05 |
This should tell you he wants one, but won't do it until he can do it right. It would be nice to see a Buell compete with the best of the superbikes, but I don't need one. Polaris sportbike? I've only heard of Polaris wanting to make a luxury touring bike. The KTM relationship is a good thing, and the first joint project is what I already have a deposit on! KTM 525 powered Polaris Outlaw:  | ||
| Jlnance |
My guess would be that Erik Buell's dream bike is often confused with the comprimises imposed by the political and fiscal realities of the parent company. I guess all of our dreams are compromised by political and fiscal realities.  I find it rather ironic that the Ulysses is such a popular bike. I'm sure Erik is proud of that bike, but it's even further away from race bikes than his prior bikes. | ||
| Buellshyter |
The Ulysses is based on the XB platform. I would suspect it wasn't too engineering intensive to develop the model. A nice fit between large brand improvements and it gave Buell another market segment for very little cost. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I'm sure Erik is proud of that bike, but it's even further away from race bikes than his prior bikes. Maybe the way you ride it.  You do realize that the XBRR and Trojan's racers are based on the Uly (at least the frame), right? (Message edited by ft_bstrd on October 22, 2006) | ||
| Jlnance |
You do realize that the XBRR and Trojan's racers are based on the Uly (at least the frame), right? Oh yea. | ||
| Thepup |
The XBRR frame is a regular firebolt frame with the side panels of a Uly welded on for more fuel. | ||
| Blake |
"Based on Suzuki architecture and designed originally by two Brit's, Barry Hart and Graham Dyson (Barton Engineering)." Right, and it would fall apart in mere minutes of running hard. It took a thorough revising/upgrading by Mr. Buell to get that engine in a competitive state. Just a heads up. Credit where credit's due. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I watch a car show every now and then where they drive an exotic car and ask, "Do you NEED a car like this? No. Do you want a car like this? Oh yeah!" That's my feeling about the Buell engine. Do I WANT a 130+hp liquid cooled, perfectly balanced, bulletproof motor. HELL YES! Do I NEED one? No, I'd just ride faster than I already do. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
No, I'd just ride faster than I already do. Bwahaha!  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Hell, I can't keep tires on it as it is! | ||
| Davegess |
It took a thorough revising/upgrading by Mr. Buell to get that engine in a competitive state. Just a heads up. Credit where credit's due. True, but if they hadn't started it Erik could not have finished it. The Barton story is am important part of Buell history. Rocket, you wanta write that up? dave | ||
| Blake |
Just trying to fill in the gaping hole in Rocket's explanation Dave. Erik's gift is making innovative ideas actually work and then putting them to good use. | ||
| Jackbequick |
The Barton engine was the RW750, right? I enjoyed Erik Buell's description of that engine: "There were places in the powerband where it would pick up 40 horsepower in 500 rpm! You couldn't ride it. The only way to ride it was to ride it around the corner completely out of the powerband, get it completely straightened out, turn on the thing and have it wheelie. Or, you had to ride it with the wheel spinning, because you couldn't deal with it coming on the pipe in the corner — it would just crash. The bike was incredibly hard to ride. The power was like a light switch. This thing was a monster. It was terrifying to ride." That quote is from Erik's page at the Motorcycle Hall of Fame. So Sean, does that sound like the Buell racer that you've been waiting for? Jack | ||
| Teddagreek |
First Buell H20  | ||
| Rocketman |
Actually Jack, yes it does, lol. From Dave's page.......The official name was Sparton. The company that made it Barton. It was designed for the 500cc FIM Formula One class but Hart made a 750cc version for use in sidecars as well as an 850cc version for D-sport SCCA racing cars. (It would prove powerful enough to push Nigel Rollason's hack to the top of the leader board at the Isle of Man TT in 1986.) It invariably had the fastest top speed of any sidecar at the TT and usually finished among the leaders. However no one wanted it for Formula One racing. Dave, I will make contact with Graham Dyson (I trust you've read this page before?), as I promised 5 years ago, lol, and go from there. Will you be publishing the definitive Buell tome one day anytime soon? Rocket | ||
| Davegess |
I have not seen that page, i will look it over. The definitive Buell tome, that's a bit down the road a bit. | ||
| Mutation_racer |
just too let you know we raced my xbrr this weekend at daytona and made 148 hp on the dyno not to bad for air cooled . ran the $hit out of it and ran great, good enough to $hit on sum really fast 999 duc's and i mean left them in the dust so if buell makes a water cooled bike great but don't think for a min. their done with this new engine. we race it now and it the future for your street bike, mark me words now we do r.n.d on the track not just the street | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Mutation, No failures? I think the XBRR could be really fun to watch, but the question is whether they can work out the component bugs. | ||
| Ceejay |
Wouldn't that be an Uly with a XBr neck? I'm under the the assumption that the only reason you need a water cooling is to get the RPM's up. If your following F1 or GP and trying to create a motor for those realms then it may be a necessity, but for a street bike and even an AMA racer there's a quite a bit you can play with to get more ponies-while keeping the bulls, without soaking em in water. Which is where the fun comes in. The rising sun boys seem to be falling over one another to win manufacturer titles and doing little to showcase the racers and bikes abilities...If the XBrr can work out some of the bugs-get thier maps(pipe) right and cure many of the electrical gremlins it could be a bear. | ||
| Davegess |
Water cooling has really NOTHING to do with the power out put of the engine. For any givein displacement and engine configuration (valves, cams, but not how the cylinders are palced) more cylinders will mean more RPM's and thus more HP. Has to do with ability to fill the cylinder peak piston speed. It is very hard to cool a inline 4 with air, hard to get the air to the inside cylinders AND keep the package compact. So you get liquid cooled 4's. The illusion that liquid is the key to HP comes from the 4 having more peak HP than a twin or a single of the same displacement and configuration. I believe one could build a 4 cylinder air cooled machine that would make as much HP as any liquid cooled machine but it would likely be very big so you could get the air to the critical bits. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I rode air-cooled I4's for years, never had a problem with heat. I realize the technology is much different now and the power I got from those older bikes is nothing by comparison but they were great bikes and fast for their time nonetheless. Water pumps take power away from the motor. Not a hell of a lot, but it's still something. Not to mention the added weight of the pump and the fluids, and the rust, etc etc etc. I like air-cooling. Personally I'll be sticking with an air-cooled motor in whatever I ride whenever possible. | ||
| Blake |
Dave, I think you meant that more cylinders with shorter strokes will mean more RPM's? |
