| Author | Message | ||
     Mojave_mike |
I had my suspension professionaly set up the previous day and went to the canyons to try it out. I entered a fairly sharp LH bend a bit too hot, and was still breaking fairly hard as I entered the bend..released the brake and counter steered hard to get the bike leaned over and the front end wobbled, like a mild tank slapper..maybe did it 3 times before it settled down. That was too freekin' scary for comfort. Anyone had this experience, and what would cause it ? Using Qualifier tires..32f, 34r Mike | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Bike model? Rider weight? Suspension settings before and after? Bump in the turn? Was the suspension tuner trying to solve some particular problem by changing the suspension settings? More than likely the suspension pro made a mistake, and made the bike unstable. Shouldn't wobble in a turn unless you are going over a bump when leaned over, in that case only a steering damper will help. Holding the bars too tightly can make the situation worse as well. I would go back to the Aggressive settings for your weight that are posted in the Knowledge Vault. Tire pressures are a bit light for road use, the mfg. recommendation of 36f 38r is good with Qualifiers on a Buell. | ||
| Mojave_mike |
...Bike model? Rider weight? Suspension settings before and after? Bump in the turn? Was the suspension tuner trying to solve some particular problem by changing the suspension settings?... It's an '06 XB12R..my weight with leathers is about 190lbs...no bump. The Buell dealer set up the bike to my weight when I took delivery, albeit with me not there. The only thing I mentioned to the tuner was that the bike sometimes "wallowed/pogo'd" in bumpy/dippy turns. My conclusion is that as I released the front brake and counter steered at the same time, the suspension unloaded and the front became loose and unstable..maybe a rebound problem ? The experience certainly gets your attention ! Mike (Message edited by Mojave_Mike on August 28, 2006) | ||
| Pwnzor |
Here's the problem. Nobody else can "set" your suspension for you, I don't care how professional they are. They do not have your riding style, so their settings are going to be wrong, period. You say the Buell dealer did it while you're not there. Probably, they went by the settings in the manual based on weight, nothing more. Setting your suspension takes ride after ride of adjusting your tire pressures, compression, rebound, and preload. Mike, my suggestion is do it yourself, take your time, and make notes as you go along, include temperature and humidity in your notes if possible. Keep these notes under your seat or in a pda and keep adding to them. In time, you'll be able to make adjustments on the fly, based on your scientific knowledge of how it works for YOU. Good luck. My settings are not even close to what the book says, and they are perfect for me. It's all about YOU making YOUR bike react the way YOU want it to. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Pwnzor is correct. While it is possible for your dealer to set the suspension properly, this is very unlikely, as the stock settings are too soft for aggressive riding. And of course, only you can evaluate the settings in terms of your particular riding style. You might think about resetting your suspension according to this table of "aggressive" settings developed by Buell factory racer, Shawn Higbee, and widely used as a starting point.  This should get you pointed in the right direction. If you plan on doing track days and riding aggressively on the street, an upgrade to the Buell competition springs can help as well. I would start off with these settings, using the factory tire pressures, (36/38), and then make changes one at a time in response to the conditions listed at the bottom of the chart. | ||
| M1combat |
Did it just happen once? Are you sure you should blame the suspension? That said... Most people find the chart above to be a good starting point. | ||
| Mojave_mike |
...Did it just happen once? Are you sure you should blame the suspension?... It just happened once..if the suspension does weird stuff, I blame the suspension..if it happened again, I might not be as lucky ! I have done 4 track days so far this year. I have a dedicated SV650 track bike, which has RaceTech forks and Penske shock. I had it set up at the track by the same guy (RaceTech) who did the Buell. Never had to touch it since. I don't want to get into any deep discussions, but I found the XB12R to be querky in its handling since day one, and I have over 5000 miles on it since last March. As a side note, my motorcycle road miles, so far this year, have exceeded 50,000, including 20,000 miles durability testing motorcycles for Honda. I own 4 motorcycles. Mike (Message edited by Mojave_Mike on August 28, 2006) (Message edited by Mojave_Mike on August 28, 2006) | ||
| No_rice |
i just adjusted mine close to the 150-165 settings before we went to the dragon this weekend since i got a wobble out of mine in a hard corner when riding before the trip. i also adjusted my seating position more forward and it worked awesome. i think alot of it was that i crank it so hard coming out of the corner i am lifting the front when i was sitting back so far since my legs are long. | ||
| Mojave_mike |
I will check the settings against the recomendations for my weight, to check for discrepencies...in fact I'll copy the list and let the suspension tech look at it. Mike | ||
| M1combat |
I wasn't saying you can't ride at all  . Just that everyone makes mistakes. No biggie... If you really figure it's the setup then... What tires? Your pressure seems fine to me. I generally run a 2.5lb spread instead of your 2lb. I weigh about 15lbs more than you and I've got my preload at 4 lines front and on the seventh ramp on the rear. I used to have an issue "sorta" like you describe but as I pitched it in from being hard on the brakes the front would slide. It would move towards the outside of the turn about 4" over about 3'. I went from four and a half lines pre-load to three and a half and went from the sixth line to the seventh on the rear preload. That solved the front tire slide issue, but then the rear would slide mid turn. Went to four lines on the front and the problem went away. If it's losing traction just as you finish adding lean then I would GUESS that you don't have enough weight over the front tire. Of course, this could happen if you're over loading the front as well... It could be a re-bound issue for sure. I'm assuming that your talking about it not extending far enough as you lean and release the brake, putting too much weight on the tire until it gets a chance to keep up with you. If it were MY bike and ME... I might try adding a line of pre-load or taking out 1/8-1/4 turn of rebound damping first. If it then begins pushing the front coming out then solve that problem... Maybe by adding some preload on the rear. I wouldn't suggest that you do that though... a lot of communication gets lost in text and suspension setup recommendations are a touchy issue. Anyway... I would try those things, but I wouldn't recommend that you do  . It's difficult to diagnose a handling issue because everyone rides a bit different... In any case... You aren't still on the D207's I assume? They suck. Just so you know... Those settings listed above were designed by Shawn Higbee. He's one of Buells test riders. They should be a good starting point. | ||
| Blake |
Motorcycle chassis geometry and suspension settings cannot prevent undesirable reactions to extreme perturbations/inputs like those you describe. If you try hard enough, you can upset the suspension on any motorcycle, even one with a steering damper. Check tire pressures? You really ought to have the suspension setup for you while you are on the bike. Is that what the guy did for you? And did he tell you what he was doing? Your owner's manual provides a fairly comprehensive diagnostic list for tuning the suspension. Here it is... XB12R Suspension Settings Suspension Tuning Guide (Page down one page to see the tabular listing.) If you are trying to fine tune your suspension, do so one setting at a time and evaluate adjustments by riding over the exact same section of road at the same speed. It's fun too to make radical changes and then see/feel their effect(s). Document every adjustment and note the effect in a log-book. It is really worth the effort on a Buell. (Message edited by Blake on August 28, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Just noticed that you are running 32 psi front and 34 psi in the rear tire. That may be too low for street duty and aggressive riding. Suggest you try 36 front and 38 psi rear. | ||
| Tank_bueller |
I may have to disagree on the 36/38 pressure. For reference, the CityX with Syncs stock, the recommended pressure is 34/36. I have Corsas and run 33/35 on the street, but I only weigh 175 w/gear. It works for me, results may vary. Having said that, I believe that everyone needs the suspension set up to suit them and their riding style, and be involved in the setup. Tank | ||
| Brad_buell |
I run 34/36, too. But that works for me. On colder days it's a little rough on commutes. It feels better with 35 in th rear. But that's only for riding to work. | ||
| Old_man |
The settings Buell gives you for your weight in your manual are a good starting point. Deviate from them in small increments until you get the bike working for you. What someone may think good settings for the track probably aren't the best for the road - too taut. | ||
| M1combat |
I use 32F/34.5R, or 31F/33.5R. It seems to work very well once the tires are warmed up. 36/38 would be way too stiff IMO. I think I'd be sliding all over the place. | ||
| Old_man |
I use the recommended 36F/38R The bike never slides. But, I do weigh 245 lbs. with gear. | ||
| Tbowdre |
pressures seem really important with the dunlops... I know immediatly if I am below the recomended 36/38psi as I definitly get a high speed front end wobble out of turns. I have a damper ordered and have adjusted my rear preload up. I think I just get the front end too light outta turns? stooopid dunlops.. | ||
| Old_man |
Instead of spending for a damper, you should have bought new tires. I threw mine away after just 500 miles. | ||
| Mojave_mike |
I was reading the Hayabusa forum and came across this post about tank slapping..it describes my situation to a "T" ..this is part of the post.. Quote.. "HEAD-SHAKE": is a slow and wallowy action...(sorta like the feeling ya get when traversing another boats wake at an angle in a small rowboat)...which is most times induced by the rider via "Over-Steering" inputs...where the riders inputs are so strong that the rider is actually fighting against the bikes natural and optimum lean/steer attitude, which the bike is trying to dictate to the rider the limitations of the front tires contact patch, which traverses in a for and aft direction, which in turn affects trail..which in turn affects wheelbase length annnnnnd?....ultimately?..."TIRE PROFILE"...(hence the commonly used word "FEEDBACK" when refering to a bikes "handling feel")....AND YOU CAN RECOVER FROM A HEAD-SHAKE..if you listen to that feedback with a close ear. I was entering a LH corner too hot..hard braking as I entered the corner and then hard counter steering to get the bike leaned over enough to get around. The tire was at it's limit and protesting ! Mike | ||
| Tbowdre |
hey old man you have a damper! | ||
| M1combat |
"The tire was at it's limit and protesting ! " That's not too entirely hard to do with some setups... So increase it's limit. What kind of tires... | ||
| Thespive |
Is that chart for XB9S as well? I've been playing with my suspension and I am close, but not quite there. --Sean | ||
| Old_man |
Before I spent money on a damper, I got rid of those tires - best money I have spent on the bike. I did install a damper and it is a good addition, but the tires were the first thing I did and I recommend this to everyone. Any of the tires that you see mentioned here have to be a huge improvement over the stock Dunlops - Rid yourself of them, you won't be sorry. (Message edited by old man on August 29, 2006) | ||
| Tbowdre |
diablo.... the perfect plan | ||
| Litng_dave |
Listen to Tbowdre! I have experienced all the handling complaints with my XB12R that I never had with my S1. The main issue is "those Tires", I have nothing against Dunlop, in fact I actually like their products. But not "those tires" on that bike!!! The best way I can discribe it is as a non-linear response from the tires during turn-in transistions. As you lean the bike into the turn, it provides differing feedback at each degree of lean that feels inconsistent and non-linear. I also replaced the OEM's with Diablo Corsa's, INCREDIBLE!!!! It's a totally different bike with smooth predictable handling from the turn-in through the drive out. Now I can drop the bike right over on to the very edge of the tires with confidence and great feel. CHANGE YOUR TIRES! Then you'll be able to appreciate what the suspension is capable of. | ||
| M1combat |
One thing that I learned about the D207's (on a 12SCG and on a 12R) is that if you hang WAY off and excercise good form they work alright. They still heat up too quickly and then of course overheat and get squirmy but they'll feel OK if you hang way off. I use Metzeler M3's myself... I think they're the same thing as the new Diablo's. Metz and Pirelli are the same company. | ||
| Old_man |
The 207's worked for me for 500 miles. But I knew that they were a rotten handling tire that I should replace. I have ridden bikes for 45 years, too many makes to mention. The buell with those tires was the worst handling bike I have ever ridden. With the Pirelli Scorpion Sync's I have now, it is the best handling bike I have ever ridden. | ||
| M1combat |
Thats the story... | ||
| Starter |
Are you sure you were counter steering? I can make my XBR headshake everytime by not countersteering. First came to my attention when a mate who rides a cruiser got a massive headshake in front of me. He was blaming everything under the sun till we realised it had been quite a while since he last rode a sports bike. "Sports Geometry, PUSH!!! don't pull".  The only attribute from the stock D207 I didn't appreciate was the standing up under brakes, not a problem after witnessing for the first time, just get your braking done earlier. Other than that the XBR handles fine with them. Feels a little strange compared to other tyres but depends what your used to. Stock D207 were the first tyre I ever wore out on the extreme edges. Profile had a bit to do with that, but they sure do look impressive to my mates. | ||
| Tbowdre |
definitly true...more than other sport bikes. not a bike problem but a rider problem. I noticed head shake today when not focused and screwing around...when I was light on the front end and on the gas...scary when at speed or turning... maybe better with tires? thats my plan.... definitly will be more safe with a dampner... | ||
| Hogs |
Hey Starter, YEah just read Twist of the wrist and they talk about counter steering there, Seems like even us OLD Farts learn something new everyday... Seems weird to steer oposite in turns ,well not really steer but as you say push out the other way than the turn, Now I understand when talking to a few racers that they feel like they just did 300 push ups going around the track, Must try this more...Interesting to say the least, What can you add to this guys... | ||
| Old_man |
I was telling a friend that I was about to teach how to ride about counter-steering. Later that day he called me to tell me that he had talked to a guy who has been riding over 20 years, and this guy said that I was full of S--t. While teaching him to ride I had him try it, to actually turn the bars slightly. He was amazed by what happened. I worked investigating homicides, part of what we did was investigate fatal vehicle accidents. In the 23 years that I saw fatal motorcycle accidents, I don't recall any that may not have involved the rider making a mistake about counter-steering. A rider who usually thinks he turns by simply leaning gets into a turn too fast and tries to help make the turn by turning the front wheel into the direction he is turning and ends up into a pole on the outside of the bend. When I teach someone to ride I tell them to only steer by using the bars and counter-steering, that way they should never make the mistake of turning the bars the wrong way. |
