| Author | Message | ||
     Diablobrian |
from 88 to present the 600cc sport bikes have done similar, the cbr600 went from 85hp to todays 115hp. Both at the crank. But that's beside the point, I agree with you Crusty, but I figured someone else would pull that up if I didn't. I'm happy with my 03 XB1250R+  (since I can't call it an RR anymore) and I hope that even if the Buell line moves on to other things that they keep selling the XB line (with continued small upgrades) along side any new product if base architecture was to change dramatically. I know Erik has long since had the next generation in his head, maybe even the one beyond that! I think that the current model has more in it than we're seeing now. Add to that how good it's been for Buell's reputation, and it is a big BIG winner, and in the future it'll be looked back on as a landmark design. | ||
| Buellfirebolt31 |
Just to throw this out there- HD is making a Screamin' Eagle FLSTSSE....thats a Softail Springer Screamin' Eagle...With a 6-speed (every HD now) and a 1800CC engine...thats pretty big...why not go on ahead and throw a 6-speed in Buell...Or maybe we'll see an easier 6-speed conversion kit for the XB's...all in all Kudos HD.... | ||
| Eboos |
Not to speak for anyone, but the way that I see it is... Buell is not the bread winner. HD is spending the money because they are making the money. Just look at your nearest HD dealership. If the salespeople at a car dealership acted with the same level of arrogance at your average HD salesman, they would all be fired. They get away with this type of behaviour because most people that want to buy a Harley will only buy a Harley. Most don't try to sell Buell because most don't TRY to sell anything at all from what I see. Buell needs to start getting tough with it's dealers. Space allocation enforcement, customer service survays, secret shoppers, dealer training and so forth. Give the dealer some insentive to sell Buells like higher profit margin (but keep the MSRP at current level), sales objective bonuses, and spins on units sold (money given to the salesman, in addition to commission, sent from the factory drawn lottary style with a minimum and a maximum amount). | ||
| Blake |
"I wonder if any other engine by any other manufacturer has improved its power output by 50% in the past 10 years?" Excellent point! I'm pretty sure that the 1996 Japan Inc 600cc sportbikes were putting out better than 70 RWHP in 1996. So that would be a "no", at least for that segment of the middleweight sport bike market. (Message edited by Blake on July 15, 2006) | ||
| Diablobrian |
Yup Blake, you got my point it took them 18 years to do lees of a gain on one of their hottest selling bikes! (600cc sport bikes) and those are the ones that have had the most impressive gains in HP for their displacement. For some reason it won't stick in peoples heads why Buell has not gone 6 speed though, Erik said that in tests they could not pass the European noise standards with the 6spd trannies. There have also been concerns voiced over the decreased strength of the narrower gears that you would have to use to fit them in the case. These answers came from people from the factory, I'm just relaying them here. Please not the RR engine case has a trapdoor in it. Drop in aftermarket transmissions will be back in the next generation. The factory is listening to us. I know people always, always, want more than what they have. When I was younger I wanted a race bike for the street. I had no idea how miserable a race bike behaved in a street environment, but I found out not because I complained about what other people didn't do, but because I built what I wanted. Buell is working full tilt at building us the next generation. Be patient. It's on it's way. Be happy that you have more options available for the bike you have! standards | ||
| Pushrodpete |
Which bring us back to my original question: Can Buell work "full tilt" on the next generation streetbike and simultaneously debug the XBRR? I want (for purely selfish consumer-based reasons) all resources working stuff I can buy. But I don't believe that will happen with the XBRR having (perceived or real) reliability problems. That has the potential to very publicly offset all the "reliability good will" built up by the XB9/XB12 line. So that'll probably get the most attention. And I don't get the "we need to build a racebike to build a street motor" philosophy. I don't believe that was needed for the XB line (correct me if I'm wrong here), and they seem to have turned out great. Besides, once you have a fully capable race motor, you still need to re-engineer a bunch of it to have a street-legal motor. Seems like an extra revenue-delaying step in getting to production... (Message edited by pushrodpete on July 16, 2006) | ||
| Wambo |
I guess I'll never understand why so many want to radically change Buell into what everyone else is doing. Why were you drawn to a Buell in the first place? They are not like the other bikes out there for a reason. If you get it, you shouldn't be let down with a year of fine-tuning to be the best that they can be as Buells. I don't want a V-rod engine or I-4 in my Buell, because it wouldn't be a Buell according to Erik. I like the V-twin engine that I can roll on or off the throtte for cornering without shifting up and down, or the great torque to fly on the streets (not the track). If you want it to be something else, go buy some other manufacturer's bike that fits what you really want and be satisfied. Otherwise be happy with your Buell or own more than one bike to be happy in having it all (like I'm trying to ). There is nothing wrong with other bikes, just different focus. The Buell is the most fun bike I've ridden. Period. YMMV. Buy the way, I've put down a deposit on the new 2007 XB12R Midnight Black-Totally awesome!! I'm Trading my '04 Gixxer 1000 and '05 XB9SX to get it. The only problem is waiting!! | ||
| Diablobrian |
Congrats on the new bike Wambo! IIRC a bunch of the RR work was done after hours and off the clock by some seriously dedicated people. If that's so I would like to thank them once again, because that's all the pay they got for the effort. (Message edited by diablobrian on July 16, 2006) | ||
| Pushrodpete |
Who wants to change Buell? I like them and think they're big honkin fun. I really want to buy one again, but I just can't get comfortable on the XB series*. Changing colors won't help. A Firebolt Long probly woulda. Would it have taken THAT much to do? HEY! Where's the cheese for my whine, here?  *Though I gotta admit, I've never tried the Uly. I'm not even sure my dealer knows what one is.... | ||
| Pushrodpete |
Diablo - you posted while I was hunting and pecking. If the XBRR effort indeed doesn't interfere with The Next Big Thing, humbly I withdraw this entire thread. Ha! Insert Emily Litella: "Never mind..." | ||
| Captpete |
I still don’t understand why Buell didn’t keep one of the tubers, the S1W for my taste, the ultimate street fighter, and keep fiddling with that as their long-line representative. No cost to update the engines as that is already being done. Get the price down since the R & D costs have already been amortized. Just tweak it out, little by little for a few years. Maybe the market isn’t there, but I’ve heard a lot of sentiment on this board that indicates there is some kind of market out there. | ||
| Jlnance |
Rocketman spake thusly: 'm saying the XB chassis limits the choice of style though And Captpete opined: I still don’t understand why Buell didn’t keep one of the tubers From everything I've read Buell is very proud of their XB frame. They believe it to be the best frame in the world. I suspect asking them to make a bike based on a different frame is like asking them to not use an underslung muffler. | ||
| Jlnance |
Which bring us back to my original question Which gives me a chance to clarify my original answer.  Last year Buell introduced the XB12Ss, XB12X, and XBRR. They clearly have the capacity to work on more than 1 thing at a time. It's just a fact of life that doing one thing means you can't do another. So sure, they could reassign the people working on the XBRR and do things that aren't presently going to get done. But I don't think the XBRR has sucked the life blood out of the engineering department. You're question could really apply to any bike they are working on. Certainly they are working on new bikes. But that doesn't guarantee that they will be new bikes that you are interested in. Last year they came out with the Uly. It was very well recieved, it sells well, and people love it. But if you were waiting for an S3T replacement, the Uly is just a distraction thats preventing you from getting what you want. | ||
| Curtyd |
All I wanted was some hardbags, a fuller fairing and a little more "stretch" in the legs, why was that asking too much? Oh well, just gives me a chance to pay off the XB9 first, since you can't really trade them in with what the dealers want to throw your way. I did that with the M2 but I had close to 40K miles on it. Maybe I'll just have to turn the XB into my S3, I kind of like the 984cc motor, anyhow. I was thinking yellow Pelican cases for sidebags, they'd match and be pretty darn indestructible. Oh, and fuel capacity, too. I don't know how I'll do that without the 12Ss frame. 4.4 gallons gets me close to 200 over the road miles. I have to figure out the legroom, though. I actually shortened mine with the traction pegs, I hate metal dirt style foot pegs. Rubber covers for me only please. I know the S3 is coming next. Next year will be as good as any, I guess, unless they just don't want to take on BMW and the big 3 that directly, and are happy with their "niche" markets. I think a 984cc sportster-based sport-tourer could be super reliable, simple to maintain, clean with the belt-drive and a long-mileage motor. 1340cc might be nice though, too, but it looks like the reliability factor isn't there. (Message edited by CURTYD on July 16, 2006) | ||
| Rocketman |
I'm not asking that Buell dump the XB chassis. On the contrary, that is their 'bread and butter' for the WHOLE range. That is what's wrong for me. It is time they introduced a tube frame, ala Bimota, Brutale, Ducati etc, super Buell in the S1 genre and make it their very expensive, very exotic, limited production flagship. Cheaper less exotic versions can abound, like the Italian's are so good at doing. Buell needs a killer Buell. Preaching to the preached has been going on for years now. Time to move ahead and entice a whole new audience. Rocket | ||
| Odinbueller |
When I mentioned H-D as a small company, it is small to say, Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda, companies like that. H-D has a great amount of wealth & has incredible clout in the industry, yes, but is still considered a small company as far as staff & product lines. Have you seen the aerial shot of the Yamaha plant? Compared to Juneau Ave, it is a continent! Just wanted to clarify what I meant from yesterday. Chris | ||
| Buellshyter |
Yamaha motors is about twice as big as HD but it also makes ATV's, snowmobiles, jetskis and who knows what else. HD only makes motorcycles. If you were to separate out the motorcycle division of Yamaha, I'm betting it's a fair match for HD. Look, HD has plenty of coin - enough to throw some at Buell if they really wanted to. I'm not on the inside, so I don't know what HD has in mind regarding Buell, but I don't see how it can be a positive thing if LESS dealerships are selling Buells than more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but HD is a publicly traded company that is in business to make a profit . I love my Buell but jumping up and down and throwing a temper tantrum demanding others see it the Buell way isn't going to cut it. Americans love speed - they love muscle. Give the Nascar crowd what they want and then maybe we can convert them. I just want Buell to be around for another 25 years | ||
| Wambo |
"I just want Buell to be around for another 25 years" Amen! | ||
| Odinbueller |
H-D is totally behind Buell as a subsidiary, but H-D won't make decisions for them, and has thrown Buell money in the past, but Buell wants to stand on its own two feet now. They are supportive from an R&D perspective (on the RR power plant), and as of a couple of years ago, I believe Buell actually made a profit. And with Jon Flickinger heading the company form the business end, he is absolutely pointing Buell in the right direction. Yes, right now it is tight having less Buell dealers, but there was a time where H-D was forcing Buell on existing & new dealers. Some stepped up and took the challenge, others did not, and now here we are. Those that are committed to the brand are here still and working hard to keep the faithful happy, though there are some stragglers out there that are not entirely enthusiastic. There's no need to throw a temper tantrum. Whenever I speak to someone who is interested in an XB, I ask them what they are coming off of. Usually it's some metric I-4, and if the speed question comes up, I ask how fast they want to go. If they answer honestly, I can tell them that a Buell will offer a better experience than what they are currently on now. After a demo ride, they are hooked. Yes, Americans love speed, and they love muscle, and so far I believe Buell is filling that segment to the best of its ability at the moment. There may be a super fast Firebolt in the pipeline for all I know, but Buell will ensure that quality is not sacrificed for the sake of speed, and when they are ready, they will make that move. Trust me, customers aren't the only ones asking for more speed from Buell. Making a tube framed super expensive flagship would be both backwards & detrimental to Buell on many levels. The equation that many will see with a tube frame model would be: Buell + Tube Frame = RECALLS! The tube frame era is over, and to make a high priced model in a market that right now is warming up to Buell would drive buyers away and confuse the press. A new model may be in the works as well (which I think is the case), perhaps an exotic higher performance XBRR-based street model, but the Buell way is to make it affordable, unlike the $65,000.00 Desmosedici Ducati MotoGP replica that's coming out soon. I'm convinced (as well as our dealership staff) that Buell will be around for a long, long time. I just don't think they need to unveil a new model each and every year to do it. Be patient and watch what happens. It could very well be history in the making for all we know. I think it might be. Chris | ||
| Josh_cox |
H-D also owns a bank, buell, an insurance company, a consulting company, and a clothing company (maybe more). So, there is a lot more to h-d than just Harley-Davidson Motor Company. | ||
| 1313 |
But if you were waiting for an S3T replacement, the Uly is just a distraction thats preventing you from getting what you want. Jim, It appears that you now understand! That's good because I don't need to try to explain it anymore. 1313 | ||
| Odinbueller |
Josh, Yes, H-D has controlling interest in Buell, but they do not own a bank. There is Harley-Davidson Financial Services, which is a lending firm only. Harley-Davidson Insurance is another subsidiary of Harley-Davidson, Inc., which offers policies underwritten by actual insurance companies. If you are referring to Performance Consulting, H-D does not own that. They are a private firm contracted by H-D to school dealers in best practices. Yes, H-D has subsidiaries like many companies, but they do not have the deep pockets everyone thinks they have, and they are still a relatively small company. If H-D were so huge, where's the Superbike project? The VR1000 proved more expensive than they could afford at the time. But Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki & Yamaha still back race teams. Why hasn't H-D entered the fray of MotoGP? Because they can't! The factory teams that are contesting MotoGP right now cost more than H-D could afford, and would take a substantial chunk of their annual earnings to fund. Same goes for AMA Superbike. Yes, there are sponsors, but you also have to consider R&D, production of the machine, testing, paying riders & teams to travel all over the country (or the world). Right now, the only H-D race team is the Pro Stock drag team, and the rest are dealer efforts as far as I know. If you take annual earnings, company personnel, market share, pretty much any metric you can think of, and H-D is not that big. All of its competitors will show bigger numbers when compared side-by-side. They are by no means small, and there are competitors out there that are smaller, but the fact remains that H-D is a small company. Chris | ||
| Diablobrian |
If I was looking for an s3t replacement I would look at building one. Start with an xb12ss add a firebolt fairing with a zero gravity st screen trade the tail section out for a uly tail. make whatever mods needed to the under-tray. get the Uly hard bags put on Uly rear sets maybe get handguards, if desired ( mod upper fairing if needed) If desired, get full fairing kit and make it wider for leg protection personalize to taste.  should be a pretty easy "parts bin bike" | ||
| Curtyd |
Is that Uly subframe a straight swap or do you have to manufacture the proper mounts? I have been looking quite a bit at the 12Ss. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Mounts are the same. There have been rumors of interference between the under seat components and the shock because of the different geometry of the Uly (longer rear shock) but no one has reported back results of actually trying it. With Buells usual great cross-compatability (lego Style  ) it should be pretty easy with minimal mods by the builder. | ||
| Buellshyter |
Odin, I'm curious, what would it cost to field a bike/team in MotoGP? | ||
| Odinbueller |
Going from the figures quoted in Faster, I think that each race costs around 7 million? Not entirely sure on exact costs. And that was a few years ago. Not to mention developing, manufacturing & testing a prototype machine producing 250+ horsepower. Hiring the engineers to build it. Building a team to race & maintain it. I couldn't imagine the costs for H-D to do it, I can only estimate that it would severely allocate a chunk of annual profit for a sport that most of it's shareholders & customers do not watch. Would be cool though to see it happen. Perhaps after a few more years... | ||
| Josh_cox |
Harley does own Eaglemark Savings Bank by the way. They seem to do well enough that every dealer has millions in inventory sitting in parts/on the sales floor on credit from them. MotoGP and Superbike will not do anything to sell H-D bikes. They will never race there. H-D's net revenue reported in 2005 was 5,342,000,000 (it is on their website under corporate reports). I'd say they are doing pretty good. If Ducati can afford to do the racing they do, H-D can definitely do it. Sorry for getting way OT guys... Go Buell! (Message edited by josh_cox on July 17, 2006) | ||
| Odinbueller |
Hey Josh, Eaglemark Savings Bank is still only a lending firm, just like Honda Credit. Yes, the inventory position is good, lots of it and moving fast. Revenue & net profit are two completely different things, however. Net profit is what you should look into. Compare that to Ducati's or any of the big names in the industry for a true litmus. I only mentioned the MotoGP & Superbike thing as a comparison, I know no H-D rider is going to follow the AMA or FIM circuits. Yeah, this thread did pretty much snowball, didn't it? Chris P.S. - Our XBRR should be shipping today! WooHoo! | ||
| Eexb |
In regard to the ORIGINAL question posed in this thread: Does anyone know for a fact that Buell actually pulled employees away from production to work on the RR project ??? Or, did they hire additional manpower for the RR project ??? Unless someone knows for sure that they put "valuable" production people on the RR, AND, they spent part of their existing manufacturing budget on the RR, there's no way to accuse/suggest that the RR is "hurting" current streetbike development ??? EE |
