| Author |
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Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 03:27 am: | 
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When I was running Suzuki GSXR's in the old days I would help people upgrade them.
I've known guys that put aftermarket pipes on their bikes without rejetting the carbs.
That does not mean it's safe to do, or good for the motor. I never advised it then, or now.
It's a roll of the dice whether or not it'll end in disaster.
Is the $189 saved (if you get the DaveS special) worth risking a blown motor for you?
That's the bottom line..... risk versus reward.
This isn't a place I can afford to take big chances. If you can that's up to you,
however, you do need to know what you're risking to make a proper assessment. |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 03:45 am: |
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Front plug after 5000 miles in my 9R with:
12 airbox, K&N Filter, de-snorkle, stock exhaust
and stock ECM |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 09:27 am: |
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Reading plugs following a "Plug Chop" is an acquired art. The good guys use a "Jewelers Loop" and you are looking for very small pits in the porcelain down inside the plug. But the problem in doing this is you need to have been been running in the adverse condition and that is where you "Chopped" the throttle and stopped the bike. It's the detonation caused by a lean condition, that requires timing changes and the adding of fuel in the effected cells. Looking for rich / lean or fouled plugs is a lot easier. But we are not looking at two stroke plugs to prevent melted pistons. It only takes 10-30 sec of detonation at power to fail a valve stem or fracture a piston. Believe me when I say they never run better, cleaner, crisper and make more power, just before they come-apart.
I am concerned will start using a air density meter and recording the A/D in the dyno room as part of our MAP development and record keeping. I am currently working on the rear cylinder timing offset and smoothing out a few bumps in the timing tables. My "ULY" runs so lean in "Closed Loop," I am very interested in both the stock and race ECM timing, because out here in Calif. we can not get good gas.. ... Terry |
Olinxb12r
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 09:46 am: |
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Very interesting guys. I guess I may spend the $189 pretty soon to get the Race ECM, and say F it after that. I guess better is going help more than nothing. I think it is awesome that people have put so much work and dyno time in to coming up with a great system for our bikes, but the price when you include the dyno time to tune it is way to much $$$$ for me. |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 10:09 am: |
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James don't get the wrong idea, we Al, Brian Nallin and I are investing in the dyno time so we can sell the package improving the bikes overall performance. We will recoup a small part of our investment one bike at a time and hope all of you understand we spent time and money to get your bike right. All we ask is that you do not share the MAP, but we are more than happy to help any DL user solve any map or software issues. ... By the end of the summer we will have specific MAPs for Rev Perf 1050 and 1250 with and without heads, as well as a 1500cc/90 ci XB. Brian has paid to have these maps developed, so that they will be available as part of the Revolution Performance Kit. ... Terry |
Firebolteric_ma
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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terrry..all i can say is "YOU DA MAN"...i have the D.L. software for my bolt and the difference is amazing. why i didn't do this earlier i can not say. but just wanted to toss out a big ol' THANKS for all the hard work "ALL" YOU GUYS do for the buellers here. |
Luckydevil
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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Buelldyno guy,
I certainly did not have any questions within the context of the Shootout itself. It raised some NEW questions that were not part of the intended test. It was well done.
You are correct that any change in volumetric efficiency will change the tables. I would go farther to say...that It clearly changes them in different ways for each muffler. Some had rich spot as well as lean spots with both the stock and race ecm depending on the muffler. Dyno tuning/remaping is certainly the best answer. Even the Buell Race ECM had some very lean conditions with some of the mufflers.
The Shootout did raise some of my previously posted questions in my mind. If anyone has actual dyno charts i would love to see them.
Everyone,
When i look at the Air/Fuel Ratio charts they show if a certain RPM is running dangerously lean or wastefully rich at a given throttle position. Some of the mufflers tested in the shootout would show a lean spot at the bottom of the rpm at Wide Open Throttle. Not as much of a problem since WOT and 2000 rpm is only a very short term state. (if I punch it and it stays at 2000 rpm, there are bigger problems) But if those same lean conditions happens at those same RMP at, let's say 10% throttle, it could mean that my engine would be fine, until i decided to go for a long slow parking lot cruise. Lean meltdown does not take long (as Buelldyno Guy mentioned) and it would happen even if i had never had any problems for years. Riding style and throttle position has a lot to do with it.
The Shootout charts show that Buell race muffler with airbox mods and a stock ECM runs lean at WOT above 4000 rpm. Does the lean spot stay there at other throttle positions? Running a dyno test with a throttle stop should tell us. If the lean spot stays above 4000RPM i could ride for years without risking my engine, have perfect plugs and never see any problems, by changing my riding style.
Knowing this would be nice. then we could answer questions like "Can i ride to the dealership for the TPS reset with my mods on ?" the answer could be "yes, if you keep it below 3000rpm", but we don't have data to answer that question, we have data that answers other questions. Plus, people on this board are throwing out contradictory answers. Most of them based on their own specific experiences.
The question is... Does a real threat exist with the different combos and if so, where is it?
Midknyte's combo may be safe, until you run it at redline..for example. Nice looking plugs for years until the right combo of throttle/mods is hit then...boom.
The folks who did the Shootout provided some very specific information. Information that cannot be assumed to be true with other conditions. i want to try out some other combos.
The reason i am going this route is that the MAP developers have every reason to keep rights to the fuel maps they develop.
I am sure the info i am asking for exists. and i am interested in displaying it in a manner that will not expose the MAPs. but it also might show that some of the risks exist under fairly limited and specific conditions.
(Message edited by luckydevil on June 16, 2006)
(Message edited by luckydevil on June 16, 2006) |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 11:05 pm: |
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Boy, when did you guys start wearin kid gloves? Shoulda called me out on that plug.
Color ok per manual but two trusted friends pointed out that the bubbling [albeit small] indicates too much heat.
FYI & FWIW...
Me stepping back to the paper filter. |
Opto
| | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 04:42 am: |
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I am very interested in both the stock and race ECM timing, because out here in Calif. we can not get good gas.. ... Terry
Same problem in Australia, when the really hot days of summer arrive it comes time to "manage" pinging via selected quality fuel stops. The stock ecm on my 04XB12 is most prone to pinging between 3200 and 4200 rpm. If I can't get good gas and it's showing signs of pinging, then I don't get on the throttle unless I'm over 4200. |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 09:31 am: |
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Opto I have had a short discussion with some Buell people about the timing tables. I do not understand a few thing I see, and am working on basic 1-4 deg rear off-set, but also not too sure why I see a 45 and right next to it a 43.5. When I am done the tables will use will have a little less science and a lot more dyno time looking for safe timing curves without a loss in power or torque. ... Terry |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
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Stock DDFI compensates with O2 sensor everywhere except idle and WOT, at least for some range of adjustment. It's likely the guys who are runningm modifications without prolems are not holding the engine for sustained WOT. On dyno runs most of the time is spent at WOT, so that's where yopu get in trouble.
I'm not saying that running modifications with the stock ECU is correct, just postulating why it works for some people. And of course, if you run leaded fuel at all in your bike with mods, the O2 sensor is quickly rendered useless and may then cause problems because the engine would just revert to the base fuel map. No conclusions here, just food for thought. |
Jens
| | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 04:56 pm: |
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Imona,
I can confirm that the factory choose a wide range to let the most modifications run safe if you give the system the chance.
Maybe they are racers too there (-:
Jens
........reverting to basefuelmap... tss tss tss |
Luckydevil
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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Jens,
The way i understand it, the fuel map is altered in it's entirety, based upon the feedback of the O2 sensor, it will not "smooth out" any serious variations from optimum. Of course if this is incorrect, one could ride all day without danger to the engine.
Even in this discussion, some say safe, some say no way.
I'll just go buy a winning lottery ticket, then I can pay for the dyno time myself. I mean how long can it take, three four weeks? haha. |
Jens
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 11:43 am: |
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Luckydevil,
we have a 1170cc shortstroke bigbore with ported Heads, our open FAST Airintakesystem and open exhaust now for more than 20.000 km road/track running with a stock ECM.
Bike is significant over 100 rearwheel HP and use 100 octan Pumpgas.
What not means that any configuration run safe with stock ECM, but this did.
The company knows very well from the past how important it is to keep the system rich. Sometimes so rich that you find power when you lean it down.
Jens |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 07:22 am: |
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O2 sensor everywhere except idle and WOT
I think you will find that Closed Loop is not that simple to find. It appears to start at around 11% throttle and end somewhere near 39% and 4K RPM. ... It is how it runs there compared to the Stock MAP that affects the total AFV. Rich conditions in closed loop would drive the ADV down and could cause lean conditions outside that area of the MAP. ... Terry |
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