| Author | Message | ||
     Missin44 |
What power plant would he use? As it is the 1200 is the logical choice and to this point has been re-worked, and works well. I have yet to see Eric Buell discuss this except to say he likes the current engine. However assuming Buell is ever in a position to develop it's own motor independent of HD, in what form would it be? Any guesses? | ||
| Ryker77 |
It had better be a simple, sturdy, tough, American, V-twin. I'd allow for oil cooled. But not watercooled. | ||
| Shea |
Is the 1450 engine used in the XBRR a harley engine too? | ||
| Sflabuell |
Erik constantly says this motor is THE MOTOR for the street. I'd say he's right. Torque gives me many more smiles to the mile than revs did. I'm also a lot more confident rolling it on than figuring out if I'm hitting that "here comes warp drive" moment. My dyno looks like a straight line drive up and this converts to a very drivable bike for me. It took a long time (over 35 years of streeting it) to have this much fun, but the right powerplant is an integral part of my riding. | ||
| Buell1111 |
"I'd allow for oil cooled. But not watercooled." Count on not ever having any REAL HP then! You can't make an engine that's not water cooled that will make any SERIOUS HP. The tolerances are just too sloppy. | ||
| Jlnance |
From the Lycoming website: Today, Lycoming produces the most complete line of horizontally opposed, air cooled four, six and eight-cylinder aircraft engines available, with power ranging from 100 to 400 HP. | ||
| Percyco |
V-twin, air cooled Harley beast....anything else and you can count me out. If I wanted to be like everyone else I could buy a Jap-bike .  | ||
| 1313 |
Just who is this Eric Buell chap? I know of Erik Buell, but not Eric Buell... Can someone please explain this one to me? 1313 | ||
| Court |
I've, by one of our own here, been amused in the past by the statement "I know everything about Eric and his company". Well . . . ok.  | ||
| Lovematt |
It is really a matter of preference. In working with hot rods, the motor characteristics I seeked were quick take off from idle and being able to turn well. I had a number of friends who preferred having the power at higher revs noting it gave them a rush. For me it is feeling the G forces when taking off and turning. I must say the Buell powerplant gives me this in spades and more relative to other bikes I have had. For REAL street riding, the Buell fits the mold very well out of the box and gets better with a few mods. Anything more and I would wonder about how "streetable" the riding really is (as well as legality) and it is likely the riding is approaching being appropriate only on a track... | ||
| Eexb |
"You can't make an engine that's not water cooled that will make any SERIOUS HP. The tolerances are just too sloppy." So, 150 Hp from the AIR cooled motor in the RR bike isn't "serious" ??? How in the heck can ANY motor w/ "sloppy" tolerances last 50,000 miles (like MANY Buells) ??? Are you "trolling" or just Buell bashing (again) ??? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
What power plant would he use? you already answered your own question but are apparently such the skeptic that you can not believe in what he says simply because its your belief that only real bikes have to have high hp numbers to compete with the japanese. | ||
| Brucelee |
I think the RR HP numbers are the deal. Assuming a 135HP version is made available for the street, where is the problem? | ||
| Missin44 |
you already answered your own question but are apparently such the skeptic that you can not believe in what he says simply because its your belief that only real bikes have to have high hp numbers to compete with the japanese. First, you know nothing about me. You're apparently the type that has a problem when anyone questions anything you think. I just thought it would be an interesting question to discuss on the board. Hey I just asked the question, the fact is it may be the engine he would choose had he developed his own. What I do know, in that he has had a very close relationship with HD. At the time the 1200 was really the only viable motor of choice, not to say it was a bad choice. But it's not like he had the resources to develop his own engine. The fact is eventually the 1200 will need to be replaced. Maybe not next year or in the next 5 years or even 10...but it will need to be replaced. Most likely to EPA regulations. Whatever the reason, it will need to be replaced. That's a fact. I never said it was a bad engine, I like it. Could it be better, sure? It would really suck if he would use a high revving Jap motor. Personally I would like to see the same basic motor, yet be water-cooled. But that’s just me. Having said all this if you are a friend or family member of Mr. Buell, I guess you set us all straight. Thanks. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
Missin, You're shooting for OPINIONS here with the layout of your question. In my opinion, the next generation buell powerplant will be very similar the the one we have now. I see another Air-cooled Harley derived V-Twin. More than likely it'll have some reworked internals, bigger bore, shorter stroke possibly or even the same cases with tweaks here and there. Keep this in mind. The XB was designed as a 'package deal' as are many other bikes. EVERYTHING is designed to work together to yield the most rewards and was put there for a reason (or left out). To simply change the XB engine to one with more horsepower is highly unlikely. There are many things that go into dictating attributes of a bike like wheelbase, center of gravity, gearing, aesthetics, weight, etc. Changing the motor would require reworking all of those things so I don't think it is likely without the addition of another model. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I don't care where a motor is made, all that matters is weight, reliability, and performance. Aprilla just released a 440 and 550cc V-twin for dirtbikes! The 550cc makes about 70hp! That's sweet. Can you imagine what they could do with, say, 800 or 900cc? Make it a narrow angle, lightweight, powerplant and shoehorn it into Buells excellent chassis. Yeah, that'd be the ticket. The current engine is fine, but it's not on the same level as the chassis. Get a world class engine for that world class chassis and Erik would sell more than he could make. | ||
| Missin44 |
Kowpow225, Everything you point out sounds logical. However, and I'm far from being and engineer, my worry is that EPA regulations will eventually kill the air-cooled engine. I would think that it would be possible to keep all the pluses of the current engine. Improve on the weaknesses, if necessary make it liquid cooled to have it pass any EPA regs., and have it all fit in a workable package. | ||
| Diablobrian |
those aprillias could cause trouble in the lw class if they built a sportier version around that motor. I think right now Erik is right where he wants to be. He is building a stronger company, sales are growing, reliability is up, warranty claims are down. Things are looking good on the business front. Add to that the XBRR program is also up and running.The motor works well. The tranny has had some teething problems, but that's part of developement. There has also been a boat load of publicity surrounding the RR. Even the negative stuff works for Buell. They keep comparing it to the street bikes. If people are looking at and thinking about Buells some of them will cross over into the light. I do believe the RR motor holds the blueprint for future motors for probably the next 5-10 years. But that's just a guess. A more efficient engine design will burn better, and make the EPA happier. Don't forget Buell hasn't even had to implement catalytic converters yet to pass emissions. I look forward to hearing more about Buell's future at homecoming, and more about it's past when Court's book comes out! | ||
| Tbs_stunta |
the thing you have to remember about the aprilia engine is that the 70hp comes with extremely high maintenance, as in valve adjustments measured in hours of use rather then thousands of miles, so they are going to have to de-tune or drop the rev limit to consider it a streetable engine. while the xbrr might make 150crank, there is no published info on it longevity. so again for the street there is no high-horsepower xb engine. and lest face facts when you talk high horsepower you are talking 170hp inline 4s and 140hp twins. those engines have a history of longevity and reliability at those numbers. (Message edited by tbs_stunta on May 07, 2006) | ||
| 2kx1 |
That Aprilia motor weighs something like 75 lbs.I would like to see the 1200 motor lose some weight. Something like 25-30 lbs. I think that would make the bikes considerably faster and handle better. Wether or not it could be done I dunno, but it would be be pretty sweet. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
How much taller would the engine be if it has single overhead cams? I would think that an XB9 engine could rev more if the valvetrain was lighter. Or is the limiting factor the hydraulic lifters? | ||
| Taxman |
i don't know motor talk. but there was a guy in michigan that made an interesting engine. it was a two cylinder engine. the first cylinder was the primary and the exhaust from that cylinder was fed into the second, smaller cylinder, where it was reburned. the guy designed it in such a way that it was a self balancing system. the emissions were remarkably low, and HP was good. i think he called it a J model. i would think that this would be a good makeup for a motorcycle engine. i don't know if it was aircooled or water cooled, but i'd like to hear more about it. is anyone else familiar with this? sorry i don't have more info about it. maybe someone else can find more info. | ||
| Diablobrian |
It has been established that the valve train is not the limiting factor on our motors. For a street motor that is expected to last 50-100k miles, The motor also cannot be too tall to fit into a practical chassis configuration. On stroker motors side loading is the major limiting factor. The rod is pushing nearly sideways at the bottom of the stroke. That's why drag bikes run long rod motors to keep things more in line and limit friction losses and wear. On big bore motors the size of the bore is the problem. There is an end point of velocity you cannot exceed for a given mass of rod/pin/piston. Large bore pistons are always heavier. Not to mention the mechanical limit placed on us by the casings. the 88-90" motors are at the maximum bore they can be at without going "long-rod". Finally the bottom end limits the output on a street motor. A single crank pin, 45 degree motor is not an optimal design For producing monster reliable power. There has been a recent upgrade to the main bearing, and the oil pump was upgraded a little while back, but 100 rwhp is about the limit if you want the motor to be low maintenance and last more than a couple of years in day to day commuter type use. That is what the factory has to build, or warranty work and recalls will drive them under very quickly. The new XBRR bottom end shows great promise. The testing I saw in Daytona before the 200 proved it to me. Now we just have to be patient and wait for it to make it's way through the gauntlet on it's way to production. Of course, this is my opinion. I could be wrong, and I invite people to show me the error of my ways, as long as they can back it up with facts. | ||
| Jimidan |
diablobrian, I agree with what you have said. I figure that someday, maybe soon, that Buell will design a hot (120 RWHP) new v-twin engine where the engineers were not given the constraints of tradition over efficiency. Actually, they probably will have to redesign eventually, as has been called for by nearly all of the major motomags. The Buell/Sporty engine is a 50+ year old design, which incorporated two cylinders lopped off of a radial aircraft engine (an even older design), which is not a high rpm engine by any means. There is a reason why radial aircraft engines are not very popular these days. I have worked on my Buell and other V-twin engines and noted the way they were put together from the inside out. If you look at a comparable 120 rwhp Suzuki TL1000 engine bottom end, it is such a heavy duty design that looks like it could be a car engine. Yet it is much lighter than my Buell engines. Plus, my Buell engines look positively fragile in comparison...and are. Hot rod one if these Buell engines like I have to 88" (I spent $7000 on each engine, and I had the cases, tranny, primary) and the cases look even flimsier. My boreholes are 4.010" to fit the spigots of the larger Axtell cylinders, and the amount of material left in between is neglible. There is a reason why the Buell development team felt the need to recast the cases for the XBRR. In addition, the pinion shaft area is ripe for problems on a hotted engine with this design...as has been evidenced by problems that have occurred over the years. There is a lot of stuff being driven off of this small shaft. It is easier to get away with this design if you don't try to hot rod it, and keep the rpms low. On the other hand, my Buell engines run like the dickens for 10,000 miles, and they sound absolutely bitch'n. I love the sound and the flat torque curve...and the fact that I will never see another bike that looks just like mine regardless of where I go. Refreshing them isn't too expensive, usually requiring new pistons and rings and a hone job, or about $650. Trying to sell that to a guy with a TL1000 though may be kinda tough. jimidan I | ||
| Blake |
"The fact is eventually the 1200 will need to be replaced. Maybe not next year or in the next 5 years or even 10...but it will need to be replaced. Most likely to EPA regulations." That is a total myth. Ask yourself how it is that in order to meet EPA anti-pollution regulations all the modern liquid-cooled sport bikes require catalytic converters where the poor old air-cooled Buell engines do not. There is nothing about an air-cooled engine that makes it inferior concerning emissions performance. In fact, the opposite is true. So don't be afraid. Be educated and help educate other purveyors of that tired old myth. | ||
| Josh_ |
"the modern liquid-cooled sport bikes require catalytic converters" ... and have for *years* my distain for that argument is shadowed only by my distain for the "inherantly imbalanced" thought ... when inline 4s run two counter-balancers and fancy engine mounting systems... and my FJR still has more vibration than my RS at highway speeds. | ||
| Court |
>>>>That is a total myth. That is an accurate statement. The air cooled v-twin will outlast gasoline powered vehicles. My wife and I both just bought new cars. I am convinced they'll be out last "traditional gas" powered cars. I could be wrong, but am VERY excited about the innovation and creativity that I am confident $5.00 a gallon gas will fuel (that there's a pun). | ||
| Milar |
>What power plant would he use? His dream in starting Buell was to build an HD powered sportbike. So I'd say he would continue to develop and refine the current motor. Along the lines of what BMW did with the boxer and Ducati with their twin. M | ||
| Bigdaddy |
I can't wait for $5.00 per gallon gas,,,man oh man,,they'll be selling new, loaded to the freaking gills, Suburbans for $20K. I'll be the first person in line  G2 | ||
| Snakedriver |
Hi All. This is my first post here so be kind! I read this thread with a genuine interest since I just bought by first bike in Oct. (XB12s). I happen to know a little about engines...Im Not An Engineer....Here gos. Air cooled engines will never be able to produce as much power as its liquid cooled counter part. I believe this has to do with heat dissipation. Porsche gave up on pure air cooling long ago. It was clear even in the late 60s when the big Triumphs were making more power and on more than one occasion beating them. Water became more and more common in the Porsches. Im not mentioning the handling. We're just talking HP and engines. Also a water cooled engine will run at a constant temp. allowing better tunning and a more efficient cooling of the engine itself. Now what I really know a little about...What Lycoming as well as other aircraft engine builders strive for is reliablity. Its better that a lawsuit. The Lycoming 540 which is a 540 cid motor makes in its purest form(carbs w/o turbo)about 300 hp. Any Vette or real sports car guy will tell you "1 hp per cubic inch please". Again its reliability, like no water pump, and no water!. Theres another problem, shock cooling. Its when the lead cylinder(s) cools faster that the rest of the motor. This happens when the throttle is closed qucikly. Im not sure if motorbikes suffer this same problem or not. I noticed a duct on my Buell that put air on the aft jug. Lastly round engines fell out of popularity because of the drag. Look at a P-51(water cooled) compared to a P-47(air cooled). They also leaked and required TLC. Watch the old videos of the bomber crews pushing the prop through. This evacuated the oil that pooled in the lower cylinders so when the engine was started it didnt do bad things to it. About the time when the aircraft builders cleaned up the lines and really began to understand aerodynamics the turbine engine came along...But thats another story...Real quickly...A turbine is air cooled. About 75 to 80% of the power that it makes goes into cooling it! (Message edited by snakedriver on May 09, 2006) | ||
| Cochise |
K. Erik is spelled with a K | ||
| Blake |
Questions/comments for Snakedriver: Never say "never." How much power does a race-winning Harley-Davidson XR750 dirt track machine put out? Is that more or less than the 1000cc liquid cooled machines that it competes against and regularly beats? How old is that air-cooled XR750 engine design? Which of the following is the simpler way to increase engine performance (you already touched on this one; please forgive the repetition): 1. Increase displacement or... 2. Add a radiator, water pump, engine coolant passages, and plumbing galore to interconnect them all? If cool/ambient air could be pumped quickly enough through a liquid-cooled engine's interior coolant passages, would it be possible to achieve adequate cooling? If not, what modifications to the coolant passages might allow such a configuration to perform adequately? What medium is used to cool the liquid in liquid-cooled engines? Just some crazy stuff to think about. I think your turbine cooling statement is misleading. The inefficiency of a combustion turbine engine is due to much the same factors that similarly affect internal combustion piston engines. Most of the heat energy of combustion is not converted into mechanical energy; instead it flows out the exhaust and into the coolant, whatever it might be. Most goes out with the exhaust though. (Message edited by Blake on May 09, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Oh yeah. WELCOME to the asylum!  Great to have another Texan on board too! | ||
| Perry |
Court said: "The air cooled v-twin will outlast gasoline powered vehicles." I guess Court gets to ride one of those experimental models... Let me guess, your V-twin is a Diesel? Or how about LPG? Hydrogen? I can't wait!! You are one lucky dude!  | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "How much power does a race-winning Harley-Davidson XR750 dirt track machine put out? Is that more or less than the 1000cc liquid cooled machines that it competes against and regularly beats? How old is that air-cooled XR750 engine design?" Yeah, what's up with that? How come Suzuki gets to use the SV or DL1000 motors in its dirt-track bikes against the XR750? Seems like a more fair engine would be the SV650, even if they would get to use the big bore kit. Harley should have protested that crap a long time ago. I am not sure how old the XR750 design is, but it has been a dandy. I can say I was watching them run when I was a kid...a long time ago. I had this thought about putting an XR750 engine in a road race bike. While I was dreaming about it, somebody else was doing it. I wonder if the big Suzukes don't have too much power for dirt since in that kind of racing tractability is paramount. Getting the power to the ground is as important as outright engine performance. The old XR motor is still king in that...and it cools itself pretty well too. Kevin Varnes and Jake Johnson will be very competitive this year though, as that team has about 4 years of development under their belt. Plus, they showed that they could race on the short track in Daytona. jimidee | ||
| Brucelee |
Porsche gave up on air cooled engines in 1998. Many Porsche addicts have never forgiven them. To be fair, air cooling an engine in the back of a car and that is enclosed AND that is running an air conditioner IS a bit of a challenge. | ||
| Thansesxb9rs |
Just consider this, when Erik started out building his own bikes he was not under HD at all. But what engine did he use? I think he likes the simplistic design of the motor and will show the world that even though it has been around since the stone age it is a great motor for a street bike and with slight modifications is going to be great for the racer. | ||
| Stretchman |
I would think the issue is torque, and how quickly it comes on. Consider something. In a frame like the XB, cornering and handling is it's real playing card. For a motor that makes better HP, and even if it made more torque, it would still have to fit into the wheelbase of the bike in order to keep it's handling characteristics. Notwithstanding that, but coming out of a corner, the power has to come on right off of throttle. On a bigger I4, this is not as much of a problem, because the bike is normally operating at very high speeds. The longer wheelbases of the I4 are also less condusive to sharp cornering at lower speeds. Corners are taken slower with less lean angle in normal city applications. For the XB, it is different. The bike is in it's own element where it is operated 90 percent of the time. IT has ridability on the street, and can handle average city driving well within the speeds posted while giving the performance of a sportbike that needs higher speeds in order to perform. Achieving even 100 HP out of a V twin comes at a price, and the sacrifice is lower end torque. Sportsters using the same powerplant with some variations do not have the same problem. But they do not have the top end numbers of the Buell. The point is, that in order to keep the bike performing within it's envelope that the engine must be set up to provide instant torque at lower speeds, such as encountered in corners. The bike needs to be at about 3 grand RPMS in order to do this, and power needs to be controllable. Otherwise, having the Buell is pointless. IMO< all other Sportbikes are pointless. Needs to have a track or a straightaway to use what power it has, uncomfortable for most city driving, and totally illegal when the bike is being operated as it's performance specs dictate it should. Not usable on the street at all. Next time, make a sportbike follow you, instead of giving it up to them, and you will know right away. Normally, when bikers ride together, they ride with the general notion that the least of the performing machines should set the pace. If that is someone's opinion of the Buell, let the Buell take lead. Even with an inexperienced rider, it's a tough act to follow. Stretch |
