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Holling
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Just curious. We know a XBRR costs $32k. How much does it cost to produce a full blown AMA Superbike like Mat Mladin's Suzuki or a MotoGP bike like Nicky Hayden's Honda? Anybody in the know? Thanks.
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Slaughter
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 02:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Roadracing World did the Jeremy Toye R1 in AMA SBK and they broke it down by costs and they had about $60K into it by the end of the season (not counting developmental and track time - just hardware and dyno costs - labor cost=0$)

If I remember, they didn't really have the overheating problems sorted out til about mid-season.

(Message edited by slaughter on February 27, 2006)
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Eurotwins
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 04:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I believe I read that the Ducati 998 RS was $185K,which was bike and spares with extra motor,starter cart and telemetry software...John
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Cataract2
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Starting to sound like the XBRR is a bargin for getting into racing compared to some others.
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 04:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Too bad there are no more available.
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Court
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

>>>>Too bad there are no more available.

Not important, the Buell's a better bike and it comes with a reasonable expectation of the company being around to provide spares.

I'm not trying to rile anyone but Ducati (and I confess to having a weak spot for them asthetically) ain't (once again) in their strongest hour.

The Buell will never be as sexy as the Ducati, the Ducati will never be as good a race motorcycle as the Buell.
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I agree the Buell will never be as sexy as a Ducati, and I'm speaking as a Ducati owner.
As for the second part..... I'd have to say only time will tell.
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Rocketman
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yeah right. Elvis will never be as good a singer as Dean Stockwell either.

Rocket
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Eeeeek
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 08:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Wait a second, Court. You're saying the Buell is a WSBK beater?

Vik
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Court
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

>>>You're saying the Buell is a WSBK beater?

I am saying that Buell will be here, racing, growing and thrilling customers when Ducati has joined the ranks of Carabella and Royal Enfield.

You recall, a few short years ago, when pals of ours, otherwise smart fellows, came to us with "reliable inside information" that Buell had "less than 6 months".

I'll let time prove me right or wrong.....

even if I hadn't read the recent issue of dealer news about Ducati closing it;s flagship store.....: )
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Diablobrian
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Back on topic. $31K for a brand new ready to race bike is a screaming deal. Most teams racing ASRA probably have around that in their race bikes. When you add up labor, triple trees, forks, more labor, shock, motor work(usually more than 1 go around there), chain conversion, pipe, body work, wheels,and even more labor. Also remember the more weight you remove from a bike the more expensive it gets to lose any more. These race bikes weigh less than 400lbs. That is wet weight with fuel. You can see how the $ add up quickly when converting a street bike to a competative racebike.

To get a superbike in competetive shape you can easily spend $60- 160k the high end numbers are for works bikes..

Super sport, despite the claims of being closest to a street bike are almost as expensive to build because the rules stipulate so many aspects of the build. The margins for gaining advantage are smaller and require more finesse to exploit the loopholes. Also more cunning to cheat, ask HRC about magnesium wheels with factory aluminum weel markings.

Estimates on the cost to build Duhamel's FX bike also run in the $60-100k range. the other works bikes will be close to that number. The privateer efforts will be run in excess of $40k for a serious effort.
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

That's great. But again, no longer available.
I would also say that you shouldn't believe everything you read as far as Ducati's end. Just as you didn't believe in Buells end. Either way, both bikes are without a doubt, world class.
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Blake
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Who says they are no longer available? Find a dealer who has one and get after it Rocketsprink! : )

The XBRRs are no different from any other Buell in that they are sold to dealerships who then sell them to the public as they wish.

Good news or what? : )
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Buelldyno_guy
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

We have over the XBRR cost in our AFM F-4 XB and it's a 1210 cc Stage III race bike making approx 118 RWHP. ... Terry
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Eeeeek
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 01:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Time will tell many things. What time has told us is Ducati has won AMA races not to mention world championships. It will take a lot of time to best their proven record on the racetrack.

Vik
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Crusty
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 04:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

It sure is nice to see people supporting Buell's racing effort.
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Rocketman
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 05:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Seems some people got mighty upset in times gone by at the mere suggestion Buell wouldn't last six months, probably around the 5 million dollar recall time if memory serves.

Fact is, Buell wouldn't have survived if HD hadn't been on board. That said, I see no good reason for those that were clearly upset by such derogatory comments toward Buell to now act in a like wise manner toward Ducati, unless they wish to be judged by the same immature standards.

So Ducati have closed a couple or three clothes shops, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, Troy Bayliss is heading up the WSB title chase after the season opener on Sunday. Last time I looked Bayliss was not riding Buell. I leave it to the stupid to fathom out what Bayliss rides. Personally, I'll be surprised if Ducati last out the season. Yeah that'd be right.

Rocket
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Court
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 06:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Fact is the Buell can be had for a fraction of the price of a Ducati and spares (as folks getting replacement heel guards and bag latches can attest) for Buells generally arrive by the next sundown.

No one in the motorcycle industry has a better spare parts and support service than Buell.

And . . . I am not predicting the demise of Ducati. I have several great friends in Bologna who I maintain a most interesting dialogue with. If anything the Italians have had a bad history of making less than wise business deals. In 1998, when Buell was in the throes of the recall era (which were actually fairly cheap, truth me known) Ducati stopped shipping parts altogether, cut off from supply by unpaid vendors.

If a person is racing spare parts must be readily available and abundant. Buell thought of this as part of the development of the entire program.

The Buell is also a fraction of the price of alternative race bikes.

Simple math.
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Cluckcluckpush
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

but the xbrr hasn't raced yet, so an unlimited supply of support and spares may not make it competitive with a 999f06 that bayliss rides.
I don't recall any desmosedici gp bike, 999 wsbk, or any ducati not making the grid because of spare part supply. I enjoy your enthusiam Court, but the FACT is the XBRR hasn't turned a wheel in anger and Ducati has won many championships against big $ japanese teams while struggling to make payroll. That is dedication to racing, and why I admire Ducati. HD could drop 20 million on a retiring exec, or millions trying to patent a sound, while killing it's racing effort as too expensive....frustrating.
The XBRR looks very promising, but calling it a better racebike than Ducati is not an accurate statement at this time.
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Court
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 08:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

>>>>The XBRR looks very promising, but calling it a better racebike than Ducati is not an accurate statement at this time.

In my mind, the only constraint is time. I'll concede to you until the TIME comes. . . let's see.

By the way, don't get me wrong. . . I am a huge Ducati fan. I admire what Miguel brought them with the Monster and I am a huge fan of their heritage. I've also spent some time speaking on their history and their "passion". There's no arguing that they turned a nice little capacitor and electrical appliance company into one of the most admirable motorcycle companies in history.

You may recall having seen me adorning the cover of a magazine mounted on a Ducati . . . and I'm here to tell you I enjoyed it!

I include in my library a couple signed editions of the History of Ducati, sent by friends in Bologna and my wife's cousin managed to snag one of the first MH900e's in the country.

By the way, I also have on my wall the complete documentation of the Hailwood and the Paul Smart replicas. . . right next to the pile of trash they sent me from the Museo Ducati opening.

Like I say. . . I am a huge fan of the company. . . less a fan of the way the bozos in America have run Ducati NA. Someday you'll hear why they moved to CA and you'll shake your head as well.

Court - eager to let the XBRR find its head.

P.S. - back on the cost topic, the XBRR will cost about what a fully decked out 999R did when there used to be a showroom in New York City.
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Trojan
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Any race bike costs what you have available to spend on it, plus the amount you thought you would like to have if only you had it.
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Diablobrian
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 11:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

well said Trojan! Well said.
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Eeeeek
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Court,

"Value" doesn't make a better racebike. At the professionaly level, he who writes the bigger cheque stands a better chance.

As for DNA, I aaplaud what they have doen in the last couple of years to revitalize their club racing efforts. Did you know that they paid out significant money to club racers last year? By significant, I mean one of our local club racers got a $10,000 cheque for winning AFM Open twins on a 749R. Other clubs had similar results.

DNA also assisted several riders with deep discounts on race goodies and bikes. In our club, we saw a small fleet of ducs take to the grids.

We also saw one high dollar XB effort. that XB did manage one first place in a race vs. SVs and I-4 400s and teh program receieved zero contingency money. That error has been remedies for this next season and I applaud Buell for stepping up to support the club races.

Finally, Ducati could close its doors for good tomorrow and that wouldn't take away from their past accomplishments. They don't take away championship trophies because the company went under.

Unless you fired up your Flux capacitor and took a look 25 years into the future, to say that Ducati will never make as good of a race Bike as Buell is a seriously flawed statement.

Vik
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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Geeez Court.
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Josh_
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I floated a proposal to management here a couple weeks back when we were trying to land Xerox as a client. It involved the company making a small marketing expenditure to park outside.

Advertising

can ya believe they said no and kicked me out of the meeting?
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Court
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 12:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

>>>> Ducati could close its doors for good tomorrow and that wouldn't take away from their past accomplishments. They don't take away championship trophies because the company went under.


That's a dead accurate statement. I'm simultaneously weary of years of "Buells will never be able to compete" and excitement about TEAM ELVES racing in the future!

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.
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Court
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

That is a great looking bike and ya have to commend Ducati for having the 999R spare parts catalog online as a .pdf file. . . see. . I do think they are okay.

Josh, why did marketing turn you down? A spare couple million can return tons of goodwill. How long have we been listening to "Harley has millions, why don't they just GIVE Buell the money to race?"

Fact of the matter is (and I learned a great deal meeting with some of the folks and firms who actually put these packages together) there is a lot more to it than just writing the check.
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Surveyor
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Any body who has ever been involved in racing will tell you the same - the cost of racing a bike(s) is all you can earn + all you can borrow and 100 times what you can afford and sometimes it's well worth it.
I own a Buell and a Ducati and in my own racing days I raced a Ducati but nowadays we race Jap Multis because they are competitive, relatively cheap to run and spares are readily available but it can be pretty boring and I really look forward to the getting to the track with the 748r or XB9r I hope the XBRR does for racing what the Ducati 916 did for World SBK.
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Eeeeek
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 01:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

No feathers ruffled. Your statement was just a little over the top.

Vik
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Rocketman
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 12:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I wonder if those same folks at Bologna would be so generous toward your so personalized library if they read some of the bull shite you write here about them and their motorcycles.

I was at a race meeting some years ago up at Olivers Mount, where a 996 pilot crashed and damaged his swing arm and rear wheel. An announcement was broadcast over the tannoy where shortly afterward a spectator rode his 996 around to the race paddock in time for a bunch of mechanics to borrow good working parts from road bike, placed on race bike, and a successful afternoon was had by all.

I remember only two WSB seasons ago when Franki Chilli popped down to his local Ducati dealer and bought for less than the price of an XBRR a new 998R. A few days later he won a race in his home WSB round on that 998R.

Whatever we see the XBRR as, it is not a world beater on the race track, but that isn't its purpose either is it. Will it win the 200? Even if it did, the 200 is not what it use to be, not that it matters that much, except in America where such an achievement will be blown out of all proportion.

Me, I consider Steve Hislop's infamous lap of Donnington's GP circuit on his BSB 998, where he lapped faster than Rossi did on his RCV in the same years Moto GP round, as much more of a performance marker. That's a street based Ducati lapping faster than the then Moto GP bike to beat, and one that was ridden by possibly the fastest bike racer of these times. So let's be real. We will not see such antics repeated by a XBRR, ever.

No matter where in the world or in which series, if Ducati don't make it to the flag it won't be for the lack of trying. The same could not be said of Buell with the exception of the odd domestic race / series, which is why I withdrew my enthusiasm for the marque years ago where racing's concerned. Time is not something you can expect a fan to wait for when too much time has passed where nothing has happened. Meanwhile, Ducati have continued winning in domestic Super Bike series throughout the world, and winning in WSB and in Moto GP. As if that wasn't enough, in the past four years we see Ducati bring to market at least six entirely new models, non based on the other. Not bad for a company going down the toilet. Man I'm so glad I have my 916. That was a wise move. You won't be able to buy one for love nor money soon

Rocket
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 01:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I like Ducatis.



Geeez Court.



Easy does it Sean.
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Anonymous
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 04:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ducati does excellent race program and I can't see how any claim can be made that Buell is equal in that arena, let alone superior. Hey, we all know Court, and he gets wound up with excitement and goes over the top sometimes.

I do believe Buell has put a great deal of effort into supporting privateers for a long time, often while at the ragged edge of survival. The XBRR should be an excellent and affordable race bike that all real racers and enthusiasts will be proud of. And Honda sucks. That's all.
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Indy_bueller
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 07:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

And Honda sucks. That's all.

Oooooo Hey Honda, Anony just said you suck! You gonna let 'em get away with that?

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Trojan
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Just got this latest press release. Seems it may be a while till the fat mama sings : )

DUCATI AGREE TERMS FOR PROPOSED CAPITAL INCREASE

March 1 2006.

Ducati and UBM Sign Preliminary Contract to Establish Syndicate of Stand-By Underwriters for Proposed Capital Increase

Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. and Borsa Italiana S.p.A: DMH), have expressed satisfaction at the signing of the definitive contract between Texas Pacific Group and InvestIndustrial Holding S.A. for the transfer of 30% less one share (not considering treasury shares which may be retained by the Company) at Euro 0.85 per share.

The Company has also signed a preliminary contract with UniCredit Banca Mobiliare, to establish a syndicate of stand-by underwriters relating to the proposed capital increase for a maximum of Euro 80 million in ordinary shares to be offered by way of subscription rights.

Ducati has also obtained a new credit line of Euro 35 million from UniCredit Banca d'Impresa, which is guaranteed for a period of 5 years, and negotiations are continuing with other banks for a further Euro 25 million financing.

Following communication of the signing of the acquisition agreement, a Ducati Board of Directors meeting has been convened to deliberate on the postponement of the Ordinary Shareholders Meeting which was scheduled for March 20th, 2006 (first call) and March 22nd, 2006 (second call), to appoint the new Board of Directors, among other items. It is expected that the meeting will be held before mid-April in order to allow the new shareholder to complete the transition of the controlling stake in time to present its own list of Board candidates. Closing of the transaction is expected by the end of March.

"We are very satisfied that the change of ownership is drawing to the desired close, thereby ensuring the company's relaunch", declared Federico Minoli, Ducati's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer.

"We would like to thank Ducati's banks, and in particular UniCredit Group, for their continuing confidence in the company", said Enrico D'Onofrio, Chief Financial Officer at Ducati.
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Madduck
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 01:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My guess is that Court will not "lose" his status at Bologna due to his comments. One over the top enthusiast is worth 1,000s of us lesser mortals when it comes to moving product. Courts rep was made long ago. The rest of us will never get to Courts level. He did it the hard way, years and year of unrelenting enthusiasm for ground breaking products. Woz probably comes close tho.
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Trojan
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 04:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

This months Motorcycle Racer magazine has a feature on the Ten Kate Honda Fireblade WSB bike. Apparently you can order one from them at exactly the same spec as the bike that took James Toseland to win the first WSB race of 2006 last week. 210bhp 200mph +.

The cost......75000 Euros or around US$94000 complete. Gulp...



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Rocketman
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 05:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Forgive me for saying this, but that doesn't seem so expensive for such a machine when MV will sell you a Tamborini for about £35000 - I believe they are.


Rocket
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Trojan
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I agree, for a world class Superbike that is a fair price, especially with the renowned back up that Ten Kate provides at WSS and WSB level. HRC must be embarressed a bit I would think, as these are built up from stock showroom Fireblade models and not HRC specials.

They reckon that Ten Kate have built 45 'customer' CBRR600s & CBRR1000's in the last year alone, many for wealthy track day addicts.
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José_quiñones
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

from roadracerx.com


quote:

I ran into Hooters Suzuki’s Eric Wood at the show, and he revealed that he’ll be using a Ten Kate Honda in the Daytona 200. Ten Kate is the Dutch outfit that prepares Hondas for World Superbike and World Supersport, and this unit (a 2004 CBR600) was brought into the country by Heyser Cycle of Maryland’s Tom Heyser. If Ten Kate’s success overseas is any indicator (Sebastien Charpentier—the fastest rider in World Supersport qualifying for this weekend’s race in Qatar—is on a Ten Kate Honda 600), Wood should be a strong entry at Daytona.




Buell race fans would know Eric as the rider that gave Buell the win at the FUSA Sportbike race at Loudon, NH a few years ago.
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