| Author | Message | ||
     Prof_Stack |
Several people and some magazines have said that Harley will use the XB motor in their 2004 Sportster, or at least a variant of it. I'm starting this thread hoping some knowledgeable people can provide some sneak peeks or information. Do you think Harley would de-tune the motor or downsize it to 883? | ||
| Dynarider |
If it does indeed get installed. I doubt it will get downsized, & most likely they will leave the power alone. A Sporty weighs quite a bit more than a Buell, so the extra weight will just eat up some of the ...ahem...excess hp  | ||
| Reepicheep |
I asked this in another thread and people missed my point. This is what I was getting at, for both the sportster and a new XB Cyclone / XB Tourer. Is there room in the cases for an XB engine to be stroked? Yes this looses top end, but yes it gains torque everywhere else. Stroking is very difficult / expensive / complicated after you have a complete engine, but would it add very much cost if done at the factory? Would make a dandy little cruiser engine. Stroke it, bring it back up to 1200 cc's, and let it rip. | ||
| Prof_Stack |
And what I wonder is how handling would be compromised in a cruiser setup. But it might look great, like my former paintshaker XLH883. | ||
| Anonymous |
I hate to use the Anon button but.... I don't know about the XB engine going into the Sportster but I do know that there are alot of new/different parts for the 2004 model. The parts I've seen have to do with intake and exhaust so I would assume something major this way comes! Wish I could say more but like the saying goes, If I told you....! If nothing else, I hope they at least put FI into the Sporty. Two friends of mine have Sportsters and the coughing/spitting is pretty annoying! | ||
| Stormfool |
Back in the day common thought was stroke it to get more power--but if you look at the bikes/cars winning races these days the engines are usually oversquare. Stroking is limited not only by the internal size of the case/other essential parts in the way but by the moment arm which is an abstruse relationship between crank throw and rod length and bore which (in terms I can relate too anyway) means that after a certain point piston rocking in the bore/rod-conflict with piston-skirt/and accel-deaccel forces to the piston at TDC reach an absolute limit with diminishing returns/severe reliability issues (such as smallend failure of conrods/pistonslap). Overboring the XB engine would probably yield significant increases in power without so much hassle--either at the factory or the local speed shop. Others here with more knowledge please chime in if I'm on the wrong track with this line of reasoning... | ||
| Rick_A |
I think the major deterrent to stroking is that the piston must move a further distance per revolution increasing piston speeds over a given RPM. You do gain more torque, but it's not able to spin as high without reliability concerns...all things being equal.
Tell them to get rid of the drag pipes and jet them correctly. | ||
| Dynarider |
Actually so long as you do jet correctly, the drag pipes are fine. I have a set of Khrome werks with the AR cones & the bike ran great with them. Never coughed or bucked at all. | ||
| Rick_A |
You've gotta loose some substancial low end power with straight-through drag pipes, though, don't you? Seems a set-up with a crossover pipe or a 2 into one would work best for most applications. There's a Sporty rider I know that tells me he gained some serious power with drag pipes...and he didn't believe my S1 topped out at only 130...told me his otherwise stock 1200 Sporty did the same. I found that a little hard to believe. | ||
| Dynarider |
You really dont lose that much on the bottom end, usually you end up with a hole right in your midrange. But you can fix that thru proper jetting, AR cones & a small baffle. I had ones that killed off that obnoxious backfiring you get when you roll off the throttle & they really helped a lot. Bike was still just as loud, but ran better. And I know a few folks have tested AR cones & claimed they really didnt help, but my seat of the pants dynometer & the way the bike felt tells me otherwise. A buddy of mine who has a sporty & myself with my Dyna ran our bikes on the S&S mobile dyno at an open house a couple yrs ago. He had no baffles at all & had a serious dip in his midrange, mine was a nice fat climb the chart. Even the guy running the dyno commented on how good my bike ran, he didnt think when I first pulled up that it would feel that good. All I had at the time was a mild cam, jetted carb & the pipes & she still put out 72hp at the rear. And a sporty doing 130, If its had some work done to it, sure. I know my bike has seen an indicated 120, granted it was probably closer to 110, but there was more & I backed off. | ||
| Paroyboy |
My other half has an 883R with the 2into1 set-up. We put the Screamin Eagle muffler on it and had it rejetted. No drag pipes! Still coughing and sputtering when cold. Took it back twice and was told (direct quote) "It's the nature of the beast. Sportsters will always do that"! Hasnt this motor been around long enough that they could get it right? Now when we go out, we just make sure to leave the Sportster warm up for 5 minutes. | ||
| Dynarider |
Roy, has anyone checked your ignition system out? I know it sounds kinda wacky, but 2 yrs ago my bike started getting real cranky when it was cold, would sputter & cough, etc. Went thru my carb & found nothing amiss. On a lark I decided to replace my ignition module with a spare screaming eagle one that I just happened to have laying around. Low & behold the problem was gone. And it would only do it when it was cold, once warmed up the bike ran fine. But with the new module in it ran great all the time. | ||
| Prof_Stack |
Been thinking about Harley's 883. Lowish hp and torque, good starter Harley. Only the Blast has less power (but is much more rideable, imho. I've owned both). If HD puts the XB motor into the Sportster line, what might they do to have a lower power option available? One magazine recently suggested putting the Blast motor into a Harley-esque cruiser frame and then calling it the "Sprint". A blast to the past, so to speak. | ||
| Cyclone1 |
I shimmed the needle, drilled out the vacuum port hole in the slide (1/8"  put a .45 slow jet in my '02, and it cured all my popping problems. Runs a lil better it seems...but hell, maybe its just me, hehe Far as the new parts go, I've been hearing lotsa "campfire" talk about the coming year and the sportster...Bout friggin time...they haven't done shit with that thing since the 5 speed, and belt drive :P Frank | ||
| Rattler |
Most carb popping is a lean condition when the CV carb transitions off idle to the mid range circuit. Tell your pals out their with Popping Sportsters to just start shimming the needle a little with thin washer(s)...the popping will go away. I can see a 1200 cc version of the XB9 engine in a Sportster with it's heavier weight....that would tick off some "Bolt" owners wouldn't it! Dale A. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Anyone know anymore about this "SPRINT" that I just read about. That would be a cool bike with the Blast engine. I grew up riding a ERS clone racing Sprint. My Dad would not let me own a jap dirt bike. | ||
| Blake |
Unless the new Sportster is totally revised it's cruiseresque configuration will do plenty to constrict the performance of a Buell engine. Things to consider... The XB uses forced air cooling and an oil cooler to support its relatively high high level of performance. Will a new Sportster utilize forced air cooling and an oil cooler? The XB has a MONGO huge airbox to support its high level of performance. Will a new sportster have such a huge airbox? Where would it be placed? The XB utilizes a mongo HUGE muffler and a highly tuned exhaust system to help achieve high performance. It is partially hidden under the bike. That won't play on a Sportster, will it? To help achieve its relatively high level of performance the XB utilizes a tuned downdraft intake tract. Is that feasible on a Sportster? The XB revs to 7,500 rpm with a rubber mounted engine/tranny. Will Sportsters become rubber mounted? Will a cruiser customer want an engine that revs to 7,500 and needs to rev above 4,000 rpm before getting into the gratuitously meaty portion of the torque curve? It would make far more sense to me for HD to start using detuned versions of the Buell 1200cc Thunderstorm engines. Imagine that. An out of the box Sportster with 70 RWHP (reduced from Buell's ~85 RWHP for some of the same reasons mentioned above). That would be what, about a 25% improvement over the current stock XL1200? Oh, and it bolts right into the existing, extremely popular, Sportster lineup. It will be interesting to see if the ever popular rumors about the XB engine ending up in a Sportster pan out. I'm extremely skeptical.  | ||
| Rattler |
See, I ticked Blake off already! LOL... Nah, just teasing with you Blake..what you listed makes a lot of sense. The rumor's out their have mentioned a wholly redesigned Sportster, but alas they are just rumors...then again, it would make much more sense to use the T-Storm engine in the present frame. With the extended production this year for the 1ooth Anniversary models, this would give HD the needed time on introducing a new Sportster...again..pure speculation. I've held off getting into the Buell market just because I want to see what "may" happen with the Sportster line first. You never know Blake...maybe HD is really thinking of finally putting the "Sport" in the Sportster! That'll never happen..one can wish though! Dale A. | ||
| Prof_Stack |
Wasn't the Sportster just that, a smaller, faster, and better handling Harley when it was officially intro'd in 1957? That's what the Buell is now. Blake, for the reasons you mentioned (nice job, btw), perhaps putting the XB motor in a new Sportster with the associated compromises might bring the HP/performance more in line with what HD likes to have in their "entry-level" bike. Plus, it would be less of a paint shaker than the current evo version. I still like the idea of a HD "Sprint" mini-cruiser based on the P3 motor. Probably not happen real soon, though. | ||
| Mikej |
...maybe HD is really thinking of finally putting the "Sport" back in the Sportster! Ya dropped a word there. The good old days, when the Sportster was a sportster and not a baby bagger. | ||
| Lake_Bueller |
I thought that H-D was discontinuing the 1200 motor. Wasn't that part of the reason for the new XB motor /-2{or am I delusional}. If that's not the case, why would Buell stop making bikes with the 1200 motor. There's nothing they couldn't have done with the current XB line that wouldn't work with the 1200. The part of the "rumor" I heard was that they were going to detune the XB motor as a substitute for the 883. That would then lead me to believe there is an all new 1200 (or similar) engine for the larger Sportie (and Buell?). Just my $.02 worth of he said/she said & speculation. | ||
| Mikej |
Why would they determine to make the XL-format engine smaller? Let's think about this for a moment.... The XB engine is smaller displacement but rev's higher than the comparable XL engines. The V-Rod enging is smaller displacement but rev's higher and has liquid cooling, compared against the basic FL engines (lumping all current "big twin" variations into the same big bucket since I've lost tract of which is which with all the twin-cam and A and B and C and Dyna and other format variations). Then let's consider that the race bikes with the XB engines seem to run around 1340cc based on published reports in various places. What's this mean? I don't know. I do know that some interesting skirted/shielded bikes have been seen in some public and pseudo-public places over the last 6 months or so. Not that this means anything since all sorts of stuff happens around that never hits production. W.A.-Guess here, but I'll speculate that the Sportster gets liquid cooling and a new framework. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Please Lord...Let them make a Buell with a V-Rod engine...Please!!!! And that was my first and last prayer for 2002. | ||
| Rick_A |
Well, seeing how in a sporty the rear cylinder wouldn't be shrouded by massive frame spars, it probably won't need a fan...and there's a lot of hopped up Sporty's out there with aftermarket oil coolers in an unobtrusive location on the front downtubes. The XB's have an oil cooler that is basically a copy of an aftermarket set up that Buellers were using...I'm sure the same could be done for the Sportster. So, there'd be a substancial drop in power...yeah...so what...like there wasn't already one between Buell and Harley 1200's. So it'd shake a bit...like Sportsters haven't always! I can see it happening. | ||
| Anonymous |
Sorry I cant reveal where I learned this but a bike was seen running on the test track in Talagada with a new frame (sport) water cooled motor, and sportster was written on the tank. My question is what the hell does this mean. sorry I have to post as anonymous | ||
| Nevco1 |
Hmmmm...Might mean I should have started praying a lot sooner, eh? | ||
| Timbo |
Dale said, >>>I've held off getting into the Buell market just because I want to see what "may" happen with the Sportster line first. You never know Blake...maybe HD is really thinking of finally putting the "Sport" in the Sportster! That'll never happen..one can wish though!<<< I thought that way too Dale. Then the XB was introduced and I realized that's what I was waiting/hoping for. Now that I have one I know it's everything I would have made my cafe Sportster into if it were physically possible. I do miss my cafe Sport, but I think I have the two extremes of the breed now, with the '72 XLCH at one end of the lineage and the '03 XB9R at the other end. I say that because I feel Erik has been doing what H-D should have done all along, evolving the breed instead of resting on their success. Then again Erik's unique forsight/vision is what has made Buell Motorcycles into what they are today, to lay the blame at H-D's foot for not doing the same really isn't fair. I'm just glad they had enough smarts to back him and bring things to the state of the art level we know is possible, but had only been able to hope for until now. Timbo | ||
| Blake |
Dale, For some reason lately, everything I post comes accross as me being pissed off. Just my frank and direct nature I guess. I'm rarely actually pissed off though. And I wouldn't be too surprised if HD were to adopt the XB engine at some point. It would probably be in a lower compression form. It just doesn't make sense that they would redesign the existing Sportster chassis to accommodate it when the existing engine is perfectly good. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Crossposted from Sacborg, by Reg Kitrelle (Battletwin)
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| Blake |
It would be ironic as heck if HD would finally decide to "evolve" the Sportster back into a competitive sport/race bike like when it was originally introduced, like what a certain young HD engineer had ernestly pushed and lobbied for back in the 1980's. Senior management wouldn't let him do it for mother HD, so they headstrong visionary did it himself. Dale, You aren't one of those "if it ain't a "Harley" it ain't anything" guys are you? I mean, waiting for HD to come out with a sport bike is kinda like waiting for our Federal government to become honest and efficient. We all want it to happen; but we aren't holding our breath. Know what I mean? I received a nice book as a Christmas gift. It is entitled "The Harley-Davidson Century", outstanding documentary of HD and related subjects, including a full chapter, 24 glorious pages in full color, devoted to Buell Motorcycles and their creator. Teh author of the Buell chapter is near and dear to my heart. He begins the chapter with... I don't know we should trust the source or not... some guy calling himself "Steve Anderson?" I thought he was some kind of NASA heat transfer expert. The book has LOTS of beautiful full color photos and is an outstanding read. The Buell chapter, which covers all models through the Firebolt, is followed by a thirty-eight page chapter on Racing, which is followed by another Steve Anderson authored chapter on "The Future". In case you happen to be lurking... Please let us know if you are involved in any other Buell related creative efforts. We like to buy that kind of stuff. Blake |
