| Author | Message | ||
     Bloose |
Anyone here make their own muffler for their XB? I am always amazed at the price they want for MC cans. If you look at the basic nature of the stock muffler it shouldn't be hard to make your own that flows and sounds better. I am thinking of putting a straight through muffler inside of the stock can. I am also considering perforating the 2" pipe inside of the stock can, stuffing it with packing and exiting straight out the back of the can. One last possibility is using a Car Chemistry 2" 3 disc insert inside of the 2" pipe and exiting out the rear of the can. I've done some searches and haven’t come up with anything. I just have a really hard time with $400+ for MC mufflers. Yes there are some nice setups out there but come on, $400+ for a steel can. I though $100 for automotive mufflers was outrageous. Any info would be great. B-loose | ||
| Darktwin79 |
Those mufflers that actually cost money all have some sort of design in them that requires labor. If you think you can match the design and power that these companies come up with. More power to you. Few have attempted this mod some with results most not. (Message edited by darktwin79 on February 19, 2006) | ||
| Olinxb12r |
Yes, lots of people have done their own pipes. It really isn't that big of a deal. My friends here in KC have done it a bunch of times. It takes them about an hour or two with the right tools. Take it off open it up and get to cuting. You can add a bigger tip to it, or even put dual outlets on it. I know there is some stuff in the knowledge vault about it. In fact there was a thread about a month ago that would tell you how to do it step by step with pictures and everything. | ||
| Speedfreaks101 |
Your going to get a lot of negative responses on this one. I say go for it and best of luck to you. Do some studying about exhaust design and learn as you go. I would look to make something along the lines of the Jardine but out of steel so that you can use it as a jacking point and weld everything (no rivets). If you wanted to use aluminum for the can you could always make belly pan out of steel for the jacking point. Just a few thoughts, Bart | ||
| Sconley |
Over the past six months I've come up with the same thoughts as you regarding an exhaust for my city x. I've looked at all the pipes, all the dyno charts and eventually bit the bullet and bought a drummer... And you know what I found, it's a bargain. I'm a mechanical engineer which doesn't mean a damn thing, but I do know a little about the theory of fluid dynamics and all the science behind not only making an exhaust but making an exhaust that yields more torque and HP. If all you want is more sound, pull out a drill or a roto zip and have at it, but you'll find that sound comes at a loss of torque, although you might get a lil more HP... But I want both, and even with my knowledge of Bernoulli's equation I couldn't just look at a collector and decide what needs to go and what needs to be added to make the thing run stronger. Even the manufacturer's don't rely on science but rather extensive dyno testing of several configurations... It's more of an art that you never get right on your first attempt. Kevin Drum did several dozen configurations with dyno tests to keep him going in the right direction, and I think he did a fine job. But 400 bucks for a reworked exhaust? Yeah, it's a little steep at first glance, but after you take into account the research and development, the higher quality fab work you get from someone who does this a lot more than you or I ever will... I think you'll find its pretty reasonable. I nickle and dimed Kevin for the past six months over his drummer and he never budged on price... But you put your money where your mouth is, and I ended up buying it anyway. Sure, I coulda got a brand new Jardine for half that, and the bike wouldn't run noticeably any better, and I'd be worrying about whether they really did improve the bracket, and I'd be bummed I couldn't jack the bike up from under the can anymore... Plus the biggest issue, is it doesn't create noticeably more torque and HP... To me that's like putting a playing card in your bicycle spokes when you were kid... Sure it makes noise, but what's the real point to it? What's it's function? People say you get what you pay for, well... You also get (or don't get) what you don't pay for. Just my thoughts, but good luck to you and let me know how it works out... As well as how many hours it takes you... But my time is worth more than 10 bucks an hour, I'd rather pay somebody else who's time is worth more than that too... They tend to know what they're doing. | ||
| Bloose |
Thanks for the comments, if someone has a link to previous discussions or a step by step procedure that would be great. I understand exhausts can be quite a science. In automotive applications you can have an exhaust that consists of 2 pipes and 2 mufflers (V8). Or it can consist of, merge collectors, x-pipes, mufflers, resonators, etc or any combination for the given setup. But the truth is improving on stock is not hard at all. From the simplicity of the stock muffler (on the '03 9R anyway )I just cannot see improving it being hard. I still think $400 is way out of line, sorry. When you look at mufflers like the Hooker Aero Chambers and Flowmasters you know these people have put a lot of R+D into a muffler. But these are $100 or less each. I know there is a volume issue at work but I still find $400 way too much. It's not just a Buell thing either, all of the bike cans are way too expensive. I figure I have little to lose giving it a try. Right now the stock can is in pieces in the basement. What I'm going to put inside of it is still up in the air for now. If it sucks I'll either look for a used stock setup or bite the bullet and go for one of the aftermarket deals. For the most part if I can get something that sounds good without giving up stock performance I'd be happy. If I can gain performance that'd be even better. B-loose | ||
| Superbee24 |
All about supply and demand. If you demand to pay less....well, you may just have to supply your own. | ||
| Thansesxb9rs |
Scon, Look in the knowledge vault, there is a dyno comparison with multiple pipes in there. You will see that the Jardine had the best gains in horse power and torque. Just because it doesn't cost as much doesn't mean it is a bad pipe. I do not run one but I do know a few who do and they love it, I also know a few who have the drummers and they love it also. Here in KC we have a lot of exhaust configurations on our bikes and the only one that made a noticable difference in power was the Force, Then again it was attached to XB9R motor that had been punched out to 1340cc. I say mess around with your exhaust have some fun because if you do not like it you can always buy an aftermarket pipe. I have a stock can that has been modified and it is way better than the stock can. I have ridden all the bikes here in KC with the aftermarket pipes and do not notice any difference from my modified pipe, but when I get a new pipe it will be the Micron. Not just because it improves performance but I love it's looks. If you really want to feel improvement in torque or horse power, the only true way to get this is with a big bore kit. Then again we will all need to sit back and see what the DL Al and Dave have been working on will do. It is looking really promising. | ||
| Sconley |
You're correct... If you define improvement in terms of "sound" only, then improving it (subjectively) is a simple job... But to define improvement in the terms of sound, hp, and torque (to the tune of 10% or more for both of them), than you've complicated things extremely. All the components you mentioned aren't thrown in haphazardly and knowledge of their existence doesn't equate to knowledge of their purpose or even their necessity in a specific application. Volume, pressure, flow, and even harmonics, are all delicately balanced given any engine's displacement and the components you mentioned are specifically designed and selected to balance that equation to maximize performance defined by a specific tuner's values and intentions. Sure there are pipes that make more higher HP numbers than the drummer... There might be some that make higher torque numbers too... But forget the peak numbers and look at the area under the curves... That's what's most important in a all around performance measurement, that is, if you want performance. But sound, yeah... You can take the muffler off and get that... And it won't cost you a dime. But I think I fully understand what you are going for now, and yeah you can get that yourself with little difficulty... I guess it's more of a philosophical difference than "your right and I'm wrong" kinda thing, as I don't know why anybody would spend time and money (even if its only fifty bucks and two hours of time) hoping they don't "give up any stock performance" after all the time and energy is spent. If I pay $400 for 10 more HP and 10 more ft/lbs of torque, I roughly paid 40 bucks per HP and 40 bucks per ft/lb... If you pay 50 bucks and luck out with one more HP and only a loss of 1 ft/lb of torque, than you paid 50 bucks per unit of HP and actually paid 50 bucks to lose a ft/lb of torque... I respect your opinion but in the terms of overall value I just don't see any. Never-the-less, I hope it does work out for you and you get a good tone and even stumble across some performance along the way... And yes, I agree... It's a volume thing with the price of MC exhausts... We're not talking tens of thousands of units being produced and sold. Keep us posted... | ||
| Bloose |
I was only mentioning the different exhaust items to say that an auto exhaust can be either quite simple or quite complicated. In fact many very simple exhaust work great depending on the motor and application. For instance, open headers with a 12-18 inch extension. Most likely that will yield the most HP under the curve, but you would not be able to run it on the street, hence the need for something more complex to control sound without giving up performance. When your looking for every available horse then your in for some real science and possibly trial and error. For sure I'm mostly after sound without losing performance. Fact is, I'm planning on an XB12 in the future. For now, I'm just going to play around and see what I come up with. B-loose | ||
| Sconley |
And that's cool... I dropped 800 bucks into engine parts for a Royal Enfield 500cc thumper... I got it from 12.8 to nearly 28 HP... It was still pretty slow but I had fun with it and moved on to the next project... There were a lot of easier ways to get more performance through eyes of everyone around me (buy a different bike) but it's fun tinkering until you decide to move onto something else... And I had a blast with that leaky single. And I wasn't ripping on the Jardine, I actually was seriously considering one as a cheaper alternative... It's got a lot of value at its price point and even beyond it. My only real point in posting was that if you are only looking for a simple way to get a decent power increase out of your bike and you plan to hold onto it for awhile and use it regularly, it's hard to beat the price point of any manufactured exhaust if you don't enjoy the ups and downs of spending time tinkering with it yourself. Most all Dyno charts aren't too far from each other given a rpm range and similar mods... It then comes down to features, sound, and looks... I'm not telling anyone what to buy or what not to buy as that is like telling someone what they're favorite color is... Mine happened to be a drummer, it might be too quiet for some or not sexy enough for others... But I'm amazed that I can buy a plasma TV for 2k and think its a bargain... Given the rest of my life and the internet as a guide, I couldn't build one from scratch given all my remaining days... That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the fun and respect the spirit of those willing to try! It just means if you are looking for a nice plasma tv, your best option is just to go buy one (any make, model available)... In the meantime, good luck and I'm going to go watch the rest of Daytona... | ||
| Thansesxb9rs |
Well lets wait and see what Terry and Al's dyno run test tell us. I do not believe there is an aftermarket pipe out there that will give an XB9 10hp and 10 ft/lb of torque anywhere. But maybe with the Direct Link the tunability of the ECM plus the addition of a pipe will allow us to get those number. I don't think any of us are saying you are wrong or trying to say these are not good pipes, but for the money I don't think you get as much as you would from a Big Bore Kit. Yes he may get lucky and get an added 1 HP and 2 ft/lb of torque but until I can see some true Dyno results I do not believe a pipe alone would give an XB9 10hp and 10 ft/lbs of torque. Remember we are talking about the 9 not a 12. I would have to say that most of these aftermarket pipes are more sound then performance. Now to get some more performance from them add a K&N airfilter $50, Upgraded ECM $200 - $350, Better flowing heads $800 - $1200, Big Bore Kit $1000 - $$$$$. Now if you add an aftermarket pipe in addition to the above items then you will get some good gains in power and torque. So really to get any added performance out of your pipe you have to spend $1000. This could give you an extra 10hp and 10 ft/lbs of torque but now you are at $100 per hp. The pipe alone is really more of a sound modification then a performance upgrade to other performance enhancing options. So for $400 - $1000 for only an aftermarket pipe I really do not see that much of a gain in performance alone. After riding a few bikes with aftermarket pipes I am glad I modified my stocker because I do not notice any differenc in power, maybe I got lucky but then everyone I know that has modified their stock exhaust has gotten better performance then stock. Still though as soon as I have an extra $750 for the Micron and $350 for the Direct Link I will be giving Al a call so that I can get that extra 10hp and 10 ft/lbs of torque. Plus a 1050 kit from Revolution Performance will have to added someday also for another $1000. So for $2000 I may be able to get 100hp and 95 ft/lbs of torque. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Small business owners do not have the luxury of selling thousands of pieces. Generally it is small businesses that supply pipes for a small niche of bikers (ie Buell). It is about the economy of scale. Developing these things costs money, testing these things cost money, and selling these things costs money. When they start selling these things at Walmart I'm sure the price will drop substantially. | ||
| Sconley |
...I was taking into consideration an aftermarket exhaust, Race ECM, air filter, and TPS reset... It's about ten HP, yeah it costs about 650 bucks after all is said and done with but ten HP is a lot for a 70hp bike... The big bore kits will yield much better numbers, but for me the fun factor is reduced a little bit, I'd rather have the 9 than the 12... If I was simply interested in pure power I wouldn't have bought a Buell in the first place... Or that Royal Enfield either... | ||
| Thansesxb9rs |
Ya but if you get the Big Bore kit on the 9 then you have a short stroke 12, much more fun. | ||
| Bloose |
Thansesxb9rs did you say you modified your stock muffler? If so do you have any info on it? A big bore would be nice but for me I'll just go to a 12. It's just a matter of time before I go to the 12. I'm actually waiting until the amount I can sell the bike for is the same as the amount I owe. Could even be this summer, we'll see. I just can't stomach paying to get rid of a bike I really like, sort of like paying $400 for a muffler. No point in it really, so I'll just wait till the numbers come together. For now I just want to play and see what I can come up with for cheap. I'm thinking I'm going to give the Car Chemistry insert a shot. It looks easy and is supposed to create a vacuum to help scavenging. I'll let you know how it comes along. B-loose | ||
| Thansesxb9rs |
First off you need to have a welder, sawzall and grinder. If you do not have these then I would recommend buying a Jardine. Cut about a 4in by 4in square about 2 inchs from the back of the can. Take a sawzall and cut the inner pipe out that you see. Pull the cut portion out of the hole. Then put the 4in by 4in plate back on and weld together. This takes about 30 mins to do once the pipe is off the bike. Yes it is only cost effective if you already have the tools to do it or know someone with them. And Scon is correct do not expect huge hp gains but do expect a big smile on your face when everyone is looking at you and your bike when they hear it coming down the road. This is the quick easy way to get some better sound from your bike. There are other ways, check out the knowledge vault, and if you have time just mess around you can always pick up another stock exhaust for cheap. | ||
| Xxxb9s |
visit my thread "cuttin my muffler, pics" you can have a short tutorial for a homebrew muffler mod use search button cheers | ||
| Bloose |
Cool. Yes I have all the tools needed. I have a Miller 210 MIG and a Lincoln TIG welder. Plus just about anything I need at work. I also have one of those Craftsman Counter rotating saws. That thing is awesome. I ordered a Car Chemistry insert so it should be quieter than an open pipe but hopefully sound better than stock. I'll tack it in place and fire up the bike. If it doesn't sound good I'll remove it. Thanks, B-loose | ||
| Roc |
Good thread. I think I will try to make one too. I was following a stock, new, xb-9 can on ebay. Went for $147+ shipping, don't think I will be going back to stock. |
