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Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 07:38 am: | 
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Didn't know that the XB drums were aluminum. I guess that's why the XB motor is already lighter than the tuber's motor.
Pretty sure Ducati's air coolers (monster, ss, etc) use Nicasil-type cylinders too.
When Honda was looking for better cam drives back in the days of center-driven cams (early 80's superbike, etc.) the "trick parts" from HRC were gear driven cams. Gears don't whip, stretch, or add tension loads. However, straight cut spur gears are louder. Plus, in the Buell motors, they're heavy.
Overhead cams are not necessary for more power or rpm. They ultimately do offer better performance by reducing overall valvetrain mass, they aren't a steadfast requirement. Buell's use of pushrod valvetrain & hydraulic lifters allows for a low maintenance valvetrain that meets the rpm range that the crank can withstand.
An interesting motor is the S&S / Buell 60-degree drag motor. Still pushrod, but I've read it uses autmotive-style rockers (rather than the torsion rockers that HD uses). Enormous two-valve heads, dual inlet tracts, etc. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 11:52 am: |
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And not just what the crank can withstand, but add to that the fact that piston velocity is actually quite high in a Buell engine as well. We would need a considerably shorter stroke to turn the valve train into the bottleneck. In a race application an XB9 stroke will do, but not at street reliability. We would need something shorter than a nine stroke to bring reliability back and then we lose the grunt that makes the bikes cool AND we reduce the reliability of the valve train because we are now running at it's limit...
I still like a 3-13/16" bore with a stroke that'll get us to ~1350cc and about a 7200-7400 RPM redline. That would move the yellow to about 6500-6700. Compared to a twelve... The stroke would remove some of the low end grunt, the bore would bring it back and we'd have more power across the range, especially near the upper end. Sounds reliable as well if you re-machine the cases for a temkin bearing...
In any case... I'll stop my part the engine hijack and please  , go back to the talk of reducing weight . I'm enjoying it quite a lot . |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 03:19 pm: |
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Good call on the shifter drum. I would never have guessed that it was aluminum.
I was merely pointing out the fact Buell is trying to hit a price point so they can increase
market share.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. I see the opposite, that Buell is creating/selling a product worthy of fetching a higher price. Buell does not appear to be interested in competing in the cut rate Japan Inc sport bike market.
"I've heard of several people running 9 pistons in their 12 also and that puts them in similar territory..."
Putting an XB9 piston in an XB12 will yield a CR of 12:1, a long way from 14:1. The highest CR I recall seeing mentioned here is the 13.75:1 that according to Terry, Vallejo runs in their 120RWHP racing machine.
(Message edited by skully on January 16, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 03:26 pm: |
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Uh, Brian... in your profile, you state that your very own bike has a 1250cc engine with XB12 stroke (same as X1 stroke). Your cylinders are almost assuredly the all aluminum nicasil plated type. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 03:35 pm: |
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My 1250cc Cyclone with mere 10.5:1 CR and stock carburetor makes 100rwhp, and that is with a set of cams that are not ground for top end at all. I've seen similar setups with different cams and bigger carburetors making near 120 rwhp.
I suspect you got some confused info on the specs for your engine. |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 04:36 pm: |
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Bear in mind that we are capable of pulling stuff that the factory is not capable of doing due to EPA regs.
It's not like the factory didn't think of doing something. The factory does what it can with the regulations placed upon it.
I personally am very impressed that they have been able to improve the power while still avoiding catalytic exhausts. |
Daves
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 04:57 pm: |
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"I know Blake, but they still have new 03's for sale in large part because of a perceived value:dollar deficit in the eyes of a large part of the target market."
That's BS.
The reason they are there is the dealer and the salespeople.
Have them give me a call, I'll take them. |
Mb182
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 05:21 pm: |
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"Even then, my Cyclone has nicasil cylinders. They work GREAT! In fact they work BETTER than the stock iron lined cylinders. At least for me. Mainly because I think the nicasil plating offers advantages and the OEM jugs sometimes get out of shape. "
My Victory's have nicasil in the cylinders (over aluminum) after 15K i pulled the stock cylinder to go to 100 cuin and NO wear at all. QC guy at the factory told me over 100K and still good!!
Great stuff/
MB |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 09:16 pm: |
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I'll have to call Hal's again and talk to Terry (if he has the time). The cylinders on my bike still carry the bar and shield.
I'd assumed they'd been bored and re-sleeved with steel. I could be wrong.
My motor was a prety wild experiment. Dan Bilanski was telling me he remembered installing the swing arm conversion etc on my bike because the mods were so new then. Said he'd wondered where it had gotten off to.
Terry Galagan and I had a fairly long conversation about my bike and what was done to it one day a few months ago.
I was thrilled to hear he had done a lot of the work himself. Not everyone has an AMA crew chief build their motor.
He told me in no uncertain terms that I was never to run anything less than 91/92 octane in it because of detonation issues with the elevated compression ratio. It may not be as high as I had thought, but it is certainly higher than stock.
Cams on my bike are still stock. there is still room for improvement in hp on it with an upgrade of the header/exhaust system, cams, ecm map and throttle body. And without major internal mods. They stopped where they did for the sake of realistic street-ability and reliability. They didn't want their performance demo to blow up on a test ride because they had gotten overzealous during the build-up. Remember, at the time there was no stock xb12 and compared to the benchmark xb9 this bike was, and still is, quite impressive.
I have the "Hal's build sheet" for the bike. kind of vague on some details, but itemizes parts and labor added to my bike. I'll scan 'em in and post them on the KV show us your power thread this weekend.
Point taken DaveS. I know about the apathetic dealers. I've seen a few. You aint one by a long shot.
Like I said before, I have seen the light!
Buell is definitely interested in some of that japan inc. market share. The Buell product, it's fit finish and quality are top notch.
If they could capture 5% more of the light weight sport bike sales (deny suzuki some sv650 sales, kawasaki some zx650 and 500 sales etc...) Erik would be doing backflips.
I was just stating that they were building to a price point to avoid alienating some of the fence sitters that would be scared away by a more expensive bike. Trying to maintain allure and exclusivity, but not the stigma of some italian makers.
I do not mean that the price should be reduced. I'd be cutting my own throat on equity in my bike.
I just meant that in places where exotica was not needed it wasn't used. technology, yes(and thank you). but not exotic materials for the sake of being exotic. Not the "style" I perceive in Erik, he seems a little more down to earth than that. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 09:56 am: |
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trying to compare the cost of a jap racer replica to a buell is invalid. Buell, HD, Ducs, Triumphs, Guzzie, Aprilla, and BMW have been selling more expensive bike than what the jap sector has to offer. People still buy them
Whats the cost of a BMW r1200st? $15,000
1170cc 110bhp 85ft/lbs 505lbs wet require high octane fuel
the BMW k1200s is a $16,000 bike-- compared to a busa or zx12 and your spending an extra 3-5,000
IMO Buell could produce a limited production bike that was topend and pre-sell many of them for 14-15,000 lighter wheels, custom paint, ceramic coated exhaust, coated engine parts, HID lighting, carbon fiber, balanced -blue printed engine, ported heads. Then about a year later offer the same parts to be sold for normalXB owners.
Let some of the magazine and TV shows use a demo bike. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 04:40 am: |
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"I just meant that in places where exotica was not needed it wasn't used."
You mean like in the magnesium fairing bracketry on the XB9R/XB12R? Or maybe you are thinking back to the carbon fiber rear huggers of some of the tubers?  |
Davegess
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:32 am: |
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You mean like in the magnesium fairing bracketry on the XB9R/XB12R? Or maybe you are thinking back to the carbon fiber rear huggers of some of the tubers
Both of those are needed! On the XB the location of the bracket dictates the weight and magnesium was the only way to go. On the Tubers, carbon fiber was needed as nothing else would survive. |
Zoar
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:51 am: |
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These are the valvetrain components used by S+S/G2 pro-stock v-twins.
http://www.jeselonline.com/ |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 01:08 pm: |
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You mean like in the magnesium fairing bracketry on the XB9R/XB12R?
That piece won some engineering awards and was the type of thinking Buell brought to the "Motor Company." The buyers at Buell are engineers and seek out manufactures and suppliers using state of the art processes. The article I read stated that original S2 piece was 20 pieces welded together. On the S3 it went down to 10 pieces. The magnesium XB piece was not just lighter it reduced cost, by having a process with less steps and fewer parts. This is the type of thinking The Buell Team brings to the table. ... The award was from a industry magazine for buyers and one of the buyers at UA showed it to me back in 02 and asked don't you ride a Buell? ... Terry |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 04:37 pm: |
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The amount of Buell knowledge here is amazing. Thanks guys!
So, Brian, amigo, what material is an SV fairing bracket made of?  |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 05:03 pm: |
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factory sv fairing stay is a welded steel boat anchor.
The fairing stay on the XB is an engineering masterpiece. I had read an article about it (that terry just summarized) a while back. Kind of gives purpose to the use of magnesium eh?
I actually wondered about the c-f hugger on the tubers. It is not at all a cosmetic piece, from what I understand, in raw form and I couldn't se a structural reason for it. Thanks Dave.
Inquiring minds get to know. 
The deeper we dig in this thread the more I love my Buell!
(Message edited by diablobrian on January 16, 2006) |
Halsracing
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:17 pm: |
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Blake the true compression when using a 9 piston with the 12 stroke is 11.4:1 using stock gaskets and no other mods |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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the true compression when using a 9 piston with the 12 stroke is 11.4:1 using stock gaskets and no other mods
Ahhhh. Thanks Terry. My mistake, not Blakes.
I must have gotten it wrong when I was scribbling down notes when I talked to you on the phone.
Blake was much closer to correct than I was on that one.Thanks for the correction. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:54 pm: |
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Interesting... It 11.4:1 doable in the AZ heat on 91 octane as long as I stick to good fuel? I have a PCIII so I can richen the mix compared to stock... |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 02:25 pm: |
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Terry G. (Halsracing),
Great to see you looking in on us and adding to the knowledge here for all us enthusiastic amateurs.
I *think* I understand your clarification, but to be sure, see if you agree with the following:
By "true compression" ratio, you are referring to the ratio of actual measured peak compression to atmospheric pressure? Meaning that you are including the effect of the cam timing and actually measuring the peak compression.
That would be in contrast to the "theoretical" compression ratio, which is merely the ratio of the combustion chamber volumes for BDC/TDC?
Okay, please don't laugh, I'm ignorant ...
Does it make much of a difference when you measure compression, how fast the engine is turned? Is there some kind of industry standard for what engine speed is used? The speed that the starter can turn it?
On another topic... We see that Rich Cronrath and crew have announced their intentions for FX in '06. How about y'all? Throw us loyal fans a bone Terry.
(Message edited by blake on January 17, 2006) |
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