| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Shyter, The rumors comprise nothing specific; trust me; I've asked! Something I usually don't do. On account of ain't no one going to tell me anything anyway. The people who would be involved in the effort ain't saying a darn thing. I'll be waiting to hear about the results of tire testing. The Buell teams were rained out of their Daytona testing session back in November; hopefully they have another session in the works. The whole debate on the handling issue for me is well-expressed in my first post in this thread. Namely that the Buells handle differently from conventional sport bikes, no doubt, agreed, absolutely true. Some folks cannot get past that, to them, "different" is seen as "inferior." But "different" is not "inferior"; the FUSA national racing win running head-to-head against the best 600cc Supersport repli-racer machines that Japan Inc has to offer is convincing proof to the contrary. The statistical tie for 1st place against a higher powered, lighter CBR600 in Cycle World's handling course competition is another datapoint of evidence in favor of the Buell. The observation by Motorcycle Online that no matter who rode which bike the XB pulled away from both an RC51 and an R1 in their favorite section of twisty-turnies is further evidence that the XBs do indeed outhandle the repliracers of Japan Inc. Personal opinion aside, it's a darn tough proposition to ignore that kind of hard evidence. Ozzie, It's not been my nor anyone's contention here to try to invalidate your personal opinion on the issue, only express our own. You have not been personally flamed or attacked in any way. If you have, please show me where and I will admonish the perpetrator accordingly. On the contrary, "People who say (that XBs handle better than bikes like the GSXR1000) obviously have not had the chance to ride a GSXR or any other modern Japanese sportbike for any length of time" Pretty sure that was you compadré. Good on you for dropping that kind of condescending/insulting approach to the debate as it makes for consternation and feelings of ill-will. Something we try to avoid around these parts. | ||
| Westozzie |
Whodom wrote: -------------------- "So what's your explanation of why England's Bike magazine proclaimed it the best handling bike of all time? Just to be 100% accurate, "Bike" magazine declared the XB12R the best cornering bike of all time." -------------------- I'm just as proud as any Buell owner that the XB12R was voted No.1. However, let's not be too one-eyed about this. How did "Bike" come to this conclusion? Not by riding the the bikes, but by some complex equation incorporation "emotion" and "risk". For crying out aloud, a 1956 BSA came 4th and the GSXR1000K5 came 48th!  A 1914 Royal Enfield came 21st beating a Ducati 999 which came 26th!  I think we can safely take that Bike article with a pinch of salt. I do agree that the XB12R is overall the most fun bike to corner of all time - if not the best handling bike of all time. I think it's pretty clear that that's what the "Bike" article was trying to say. Also "Bike's" cornering equation illustrates that a large part of motorcycling's appeal centres around "emotion". It's often about how a bike makes you feel rather than its scientifically measured performance. (Message edited by westozzie on December 11, 2005) | ||
| Xlcr |
This brings to mind another analogy. I read a book not long ago by a world champion fencing master that used to train people for the movies. I also had the privilege of meeting and talking to another fencing master recently. The guy who wrote the book mentioned that in spite of the legends of Samurai swordsmanship, no Japanese has ever even made the finals at an international fencing competition. I asked the one I met in person about that, and he said that a champion fencing master once had a match with one of Japan's greatest Samurai swordsman at the time. It was a slaughter. The Samurai was soundly trounced by the Western master. Two completely different styles, one feared and legendary, but in the end, inferior. What it FEELS like doesn't matter, the only thing that does is the final result. Someday again, like at Loudon, the horsepower will match up, and then we will see. | ||
| Westozzie |
Blake wrote: "You have not been personally flamed or attacked in any way. If you have, please show me where and I will admonish the perpetrator accordingly. Good on you for dropping that kind of condescending/insulting approach to the debate as it makes for consternation and feelings of ill-will. Something we try to avoid around these parts." Please stop hammering me for a remark you've already admonished me for. And please stop being condescending/insulting/confrontational toward me: eg.1: "Sound like you are calling liars those of us..." eg.2: "Suggest you rethink your ego and presumed superiority in judging the handling characteristics of motorcycles." eg.3: "I won't call you a liar or hold myself up as the man with the final expert say in the matter." eg.4: "You have impressive credentials, kinda. You ever race? I have. I've lapped....[etc.]" I think I have kept to a pretty civilised debate since you warned me the first time (that I would not be "reminded again"). When you wrote: "It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. It is simply that some have a different opinion. You shouldn't let that threaten you, just like we shouldn't let your opinion threaten our own egos." I agreed with you and extended the hand of friendship. I am disappointed that you didn't leave it there but chose to maintain a belligerent attitude. Let me try again: You clearly don't accept my assessment of Buell XB handling. Equally so I don't accept your arguments as "irrefutable proof of the handling superiority of Buells over Jap repliracers" as you've claimed. Let's agree to disagree on this occasion and look forward to agreeing on other issues in the future.  | ||
| Perry |
Westozzie - If nobody else will, I'll shake your hand and agree to be friends! You all made some good points. My son and I rode a beautiful twisty road a couple months ago, his '04 R6 and my '05 XB12Scg. We swapped bikes and rode home so we could both get a feel for each bike. To both of us, the R6 seemed smoother and more confident cornering. But I still hated it. The R6 seemed like you had to either be accelerating or decelerating like mad - no such thing as just cruising and that got annoying once the "racing" was done. I bought my Buell for unique character that fits me, ridability around town (commuting) and for good handling on the twisties (and it was my size!). I don't care what any magazine wrote or will write about my Buell, because nothing they write will change what is sitting in my garage. I know what it is, and what it isn't, and I'm good with it. I love my Buell for what it is to ME, not for what it is/isn't to Kunitsugu and company.  | ||
| Westozzie |
Thanks Perry! "To both of us, the R6 seemed smoother and more confident cornering. But I still hated it....I don't care what any magazine wrote or will write about my Buell, because nothing they write will change what is sitting in my garage. I know what it is, and what it isn't, and I'm good with it." Exactly! Bikes like the R6 are great in "race mode" but it just depends what you like. I prefer an XB as an overall package for a variety of reasons. (Message edited by westozzie on December 11, 2005) | ||
| Diablobrian |
just think how boring the world would be if we all agreed on everything. every house would look the same, we would all have the same model/color car and motorcycle....yawn... | ||
| Blake |
Ozzie, You no read good. Try again... Ozzie, It's not been my nor anyone's contention here to try to invalidate your personal opinion on the issue, only express our own. You have not been personally flamed or attacked in any way as you previously claimed. If you have, please show me where and I will admonish the perpetrator accordingly. On the contrary, "People who say (that XBs handle better than bikes like the GSXR1000) obviously have not had the chance to ride a GSXR or any other modern Japanese sportbike for any length of time" Pretty sure that was you compadré. Good on you for dropping that kind of condescending/insulting approach to the debate as it makes for consternation and feelings of ill-will. Something we try to avoid around these parts. Nenad, I'll continue admonishing you until you stop making excuses trying to turn the issue back around on me or others. My problem is not with your opinion, it is with your problematic behavior on this board and my uneasy feeling that I've seen it before, and that you are neither inclined to acknowledge it nor to affect the requisite change. | ||
| Westozzie |
Blake, 1) "your problematic behavior on this board and my uneasy feeling that I've seen it before" Before you go any further with the insinuation that I am some kind of Aussie spy/troll sent to Badweb from ABR to undermine it - let me nip that one in the bud now. I assure everyone here that I am exactly who I say I am. I have no reason for posting on this site beyond the fact that I am a multiple Buell owner with a healthy interest in gaining and sharing knowledge and experiences with other Buell owners. 2)"People who say (that XBs handle better than bikes like the GSXR1000) obviously have not had the chance to ride a GSXR or any other modern Japanese sportbike for any length of time" For some reason you've been really offended by this remark. You've raised it 3 times now... I am sorry if this comment offended you but I really can't see why it has cut you so deeply - unless perhaps you haven't ridden a modern Japanese sportbike? No one else has admitted to being offended by that remark. (If anyone else has however - I apologise). 3) "Ozzie, You no read good. Try again..." Hmm. Another condescending remark from you... Thanks for that. Perhaps you should read all my posts again. If the most offensive comment I made was the one above in item 2, then what exactly is my problematic behaviour? Not agreeing with you? 4) "I'll continue admonishing you until you stop making excuses trying to turn the issue back around on me or others." I haven't made any excuses. I may have tried to smooth the waters, but that's all. My opinion and position has remained entirely consistent from the start. As for turning the issue back on you: I don't think it was unreasonable to point out that all the things you accuse me of (being condescending, insulting, etc) is behaviour you indulge in without fear of retribution. 5) "My problem is not with your opinion, it is with your problematic behavior on this board ... and that you are neither inclined to acknowledge it nor to affect the requisite change." On the contrary, I think you do have a problem with my opinion. To the extent that my views are controversial and may not be shared by others, it is understandable that they may have generated some debate - but your reaction has been rather alarming. Your defensivness borders on the irrational. One would expect a bit of moderation from the "moderator". And it reflects badly on you that you didn't accept my "hand of friendship" - twice. If you want this forum to be full of pandering yes-men, then the thinly veiled threats you made to me have bought you one step closer to your objective. Chill out dude! (Message edited by westozzie on December 12, 2005) | ||
| Martya |
another hot topic!, well, if you take the rating (best cornering bikes) of BIKE magazine in the right context, i think you will find that the reason that all those other "old" bikes are in their , is the era that they came from. i.e if the gold star was voted number 30th, then that would have been comparing that with other bikes from that era, not a ducati 916. as for journalist's, (sorry boys and girls) yes you can take what they say with a pinch of salt!. as for an ex GP racer (niall mackenzie), i would take a bit more notice than usual. quote from T.W.O. magazine " high footpegs, spongy forks, and fluffy carburation but it's still the bike i would choose to take home (tested with a VTR1000 and a SV1000). it oozes personality whether you are riding it or just admiring it". the other testers were not so complimentary, but still had this to say,"the shiniest jewel in the buell's crown is the engine, smooth flexible and torquey, it's a joy to use". other than the soft fork's, they claim the chassis to be a gem!, accurate, light steering with excellent feedback. they praised the belt drive for it's smoothness. me, well i will take mr mackenzies word on the buell, as it was the one i decided to take the keys home too! | ||
| Logicom |
The buell may be the so called "fastest cornering bike on earth" a comment that i do not subscribe to but too indulge blake. The tests that the buell faithful like blake proudly hold forth as gospel did not include many bikes such as the RGV250 and the crop of 250RR 2 strokes bikes that will out brake and outcorner a buell XB any day of the week. If a bike feels differently, reacts differently to rider inputs, but gets around the track or through the twisty turnies better, does it or does it not handle better? Is that going to promote smooth riding and rider confidence? in a race it will promote premature tire and brake wear, but yeah good point  Louden is a very tight technical track. The race was the FUSA National Sportbike race, a HP limited class dominated by the best latest IL4 repli-racers Japan Inc had to offer. It was a dry race against a horde of 600 Supersport racing machines and Jeff Wood won it on his Buell XB9R racing machine. Wow one race makes not a championship, great the bike can win on a track with no straights, hardly a true test of the potential of all bikes. That race limited all bikes to 115hp, the bog stock Yamaha YZF-R6 2002 model road bike came out with 120Hp so that and the other 600cc jap bikes would have been down tuned/restricted to meet the standards, Correct? While the buell could have been powered up and even a fully worked XB9 would be trying very hard to get to the 115hp maximum in stock 984cc capacity. Why not run R6 against XB9 straight from the box with no mods? typical blake don't let facts get in the way of a good story | ||
| Dana P. |
How do you tune a bike down.LoL As far as Ozzies remarks I just let you babble. I've seen this debate before and its usually someone that just has 16 posts to there credibilty on this board and thinks that Nobody here owns other bikes as well that I know do not feel the way you do.Some here have Aprilia Mille R's,ZX10's,etc. | ||
| 2hogs |
Gentlemen, Why all the bandwidth for a meaningless comparison? Sales are a key factor for any manufacturer, there are just different approaches to that end. I have a Harley FLTRI and a Buell XB12X because they fit my needs. I ride for enjoyment and yes riding the bike to/from work even makes my commute more enjoyable. I'm not out to impress anyone, therefore all track data, magazine articles and yes even other peoples opinions matter naught. I bet most of you would agree, that when you hop on whatever you ride and head down the road all the hype, press data, etc doesn't matter. Well I guess it could if you've got to prove something to someone, but I've past that years ago and just ride for me. Cheers | ||
| M1combat |
I think a lot of us agree with you 2Hogs. It's just that when someone shows up and says things like "The RC-51 will out handle an XB, Trust me, I've ridden both" some of us see that as showing their •••. Some of us like to point  . Someone says "They both handle about the same".... Yeah, My truck and my Mustang handle about the same. Until you approach their limits. That statement says more about the riders ability than the bikes, but to THEIR point of view... Both bikes handle about the same. That doesn't mean that they handle the same... It means they were ridden the same. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh BTW... take a look at the "remove the emotion" section of the bike magazine article... The XB12R placed second to a 999R. No Japanese bikes made it any higher than sixth. The top five are dominated by Ducatis with an Aprilia and a Buell thrown in. The XB in second, but scoring the SAME scores as the 999R (yes, that's an "R" ) in three of four categories. It lost out in "drive out". How much reliable power can be built into a 12R with $20K? | ||
| Chadhargis |
2Hogs hit the nail on the head. Ride what you like. I ride a 12X because it fits me, it's comfortable, and it handles better than any 500lb bike with the same level of comfort should. Buell hit a home run with the 12X because it's being compared to bikes that it can easily outhandle. Trust me, no stock BMW GS, V-Strom, Adventure, or Tiger can hang with the 12X given equal riders. The Ducati Multistrada is the only bike that has a chance at exceeding the handling of the 12X. | ||
| Slaughter |
yes... | ||
| Slaughter |
No... | ||
| Slaughter |
Does so!!!! | ||
| Slaughter |
Does not!!!! | ||
| Slaughter |
You're making it up!!! | ||
| Slaughter |
Am not!!!! | ||
| Slaughter |
Are too!!! | ||
| Dana P. |
 | ||
| Blake |
Logicom, Interesting how you address me as though you know me. Do I know you? Welcome to BadWeB; I see you just today registered with us. Call me paranoid, but why are you directing your contribution to BadWeB through an anonymizer type proxy server located in Spain? LOL! Either you have been banned and cannot stand it, or you are a coward afraid to show your true identity on BadWeB. So if a bike feels differently you are saying it is going to use up tires and brakes more quickly? You'll have to explain that to me. I don't see it. I think a race win in a national series on a tight technical track proves that the bike, in virtually out of the box form was able to out-handle its well seasoned and well-developed competition. It should be significant evidence to thoughtful folk that in order to win a race against significantly higher-powered (like you said), lighter-weight, better-developed racing machines, the XB9R obviously must have handled better. FYI: 120 BHP at the crank translates to around 100RWHP on an inertial dyno. But thanks for supporting my point, that the lower powered heavier Buell XB9R was able to win the race and so must have provided superior handling. Let me see, is that factual or am I making up a story? Where exactly are your "facts" Jason (Logicom) or whoever you are? And FYI, that last little ad-hominem attack, that's strike one pardner. | ||
| Blake |
I wish I were above all this nonesense like Steve is. | ||
| Buellshyter |
I really don't have an opinion one way or the other but I can spot illogic. Logicom was trying to make an argument against the XB when in fact, he made one for. Wow one race makes not a championship, great the bike can win on a track with no straights, hardly a true test of the potential of all bikes. That race limited all bikes to 115hp, the bog stock Yamaha YZF-R6 2002 model road bike came out with 120Hp so that and the other 600cc jap bikes would have been down tuned/restricted to meet the standards, Correct? While the buell could have been powered up and even a fully worked XB9 would be trying very hard to get to the 115hp maximum in stock 984cc capacity. Why not run R6 against XB9 straight from the box with no mods? typical blake don't let facts get in the way of a good story So, Illogicom, if ALL the Japanese bikes were horsepower limited and the Buell was struggling to reach 115hp and still won the race, what does that tell you?? Either the rider was better or the Buell handled better. Granted, the Buell is horsepower deficient compared to I4's but that is not what the topic of discussion is about | ||
| Blake |
Nenad (Westozzie), Strike 2. It is obvious that you are never in the wrong. Whatever. Please cease the arguing. Surf BadWeB; enjoy the camaraderie; talk about the handling traits of the XBs; have fun! Just please cease the arguing and derisive commentary. Again, all opinions thoughtfully expressed are welcome here. What is not welcome here are those opinions that are confrontational and divisive. Blake (BadWeB Custodian) | ||
| Westozzie |
Blake wrote:"Surf BadWeB; enjoy the camaraderie; talk about the handling traits of the XBs; have fun!" That was always the plan Stan. Thanks for that. It's nice to be welcomed on board (even if it came with a "strike 2")! (If I wanted to argue I'd join a religion and politics forum instead of a motorcycle one!) (Message edited by westozzie on December 12, 2005) | ||
| Buellfool |
Blake you would have to be the champion of "Never in the wrong". It seems to me that quite often you take offence when others express an opinion different to your own. What do you have to do to get a strike against you? |
