| Author | Message | ||
     Surveyor |
"My lap times are much faster on the XB12R than on my Mille R as long as it is a technical track" My lap times are faster (or less slow) on the XB9R than on my 748r even though it is a technical track! | ||
| Xbolt12 |
M1-if you are asking me, I use the upper part of my palm. As for the damper, I put it on because I had violent headshake once (with the M1's) and decided I wanted a little extra insurance. I found the bike a lot more enjoyable on the freeway (although I don't do much of that besides the annual Laguna Seca trip) and just generally more stable. It scared me to take my hands off the bar at medium speeds before the damper. Afterward I can no-hand on the freeway at 60+ with no worries. I have some right wrist problems and my hand goes numb, so sometimes I have to stretch it out. BTW the Hypro linear damper has something like 26 positions and I have settled on the 7th position from the lightest. So there is tons of range and 7 is enough to keep the headshake away, even when you get sloppy or a little too hard on the gas in transitions. In other words it just adds some extra stability and that allows me to run a little more aggressive geometry w/o compromising anything. | ||
| Westozzie |
Look, I like Buell XBs, (I've had an XB9R and I'm currently waiting for a new 06 XB12R to arrive) and I hate to say it, but XBs really don't handle better than bikes like the GSXR1000. People who say they do obviously have not had the chance to ride a GSXR or any other modern Japanese sportbike for any length of time. I am fortunate enough to have a wife with a '03 954 Fireblade so I have had plenty of opportunity to compare it to the XB. I've also got a mate who has loaned me his GSXR1000K4 while I'm waiting for my '06 XB12R to arrive. No doubt the XB can match or beat any other sportbike for lean angle but this is only one aspect of handling (and how many people use all of their available lean angle anyway?). I totally agree with what someone said earlier: "The XB is very stable if you get positioned well before your turn, as you are supposed to. What you do not want to do is try to adjust your body significantly while leaned over, then it will feel twitchy, more so than many other bikes." What I have also found is that if you need to drop an XB suddenly into a lean or adjust that lean angle suddenly - you'll find the XB won't drop into a lean or turn anywhere nearly as quickly as the Fireblade, GSXR or similar Japanese bike. For some reason, the XBs are surprisingly sluggish when you try to flick them from side to side. Also if you need to brake or stuff up a corner in any way the XB is no where near as forgiving as a Japanese sportbike. They stand up, run wide and get quite twitchy - exhibiting a similar response to that of a bike without enough fork rebound (something to do with the short wheelbase perhaps?). In my honest opinion: If you need to keep up with guys on I4s doing 250kph+ on open roads - the XB is not the bike for you. Get a GSXR1000, R1, ZX12R, Hayabusa, etc. (apart from the relative lack of power I get the impression that XBs wouldn't be as stable at such speeds as Jap race reps). Likewise if you need to keep up with guys on race reps on unfamilar or unpredicable winding roads - the XB is not the bike for you. Get something like a Yamaha R6. However, if you ride for recreation and don't need to prove you are faster than your mates, a Buell XB is great fun and much less fatiguing to ride than a Japanese race replica. Quite apart from the wider bars and more comfy seating position it's much easier to just wind on the throttle on an XB than to tap dance on the gear lever while trying to keep the revs up around 10,000 on an R6 or similar. If you like riding winding roads in a smooth fashion without lots of hard braking or accelerating - you'll especially love the XB! Finally, for what it's worth, XBs are much better in the city than a "head down, bum up" race replica. Wrists, neck and back don't get as sore - and it's brilliant fun to launch way from the lights on a whiff of throttle. One more thing: XBs do not do "unexpected, sudden wheelies" like someone said. If you think they do, try accelerating hard out of a corner on a 954 Fireblade thinking you're in 2nd gear and then finding out you were actually in 1st... Then you'll know about unexpected wheelies... | ||
| Dana P. |
Why are you buying another one???  | ||
| Westozzie |
Why am I buying another one? Well, apart from what I already wrote in favour of the XBs in my previous post; I like: the fact that so few people have one, the looks, the innovative and clever engineering, the usable power (I love that you can use all of the revs most of the time), the V-twin torque, the comfortable riding position, the buell integrated luggage, the fact it has no chain snatch, no chain to oil, no valve clearances to adjust and that it has a simple air cooled engine; and finally, because I also have a Akrapovic-full-system-equipped Honda 954 Fireblade for when I "feel the need for speed". | ||
| Ralf |
So are you saying I crapped my pants over something I imagined? Or that I should have "expected" that one time out of ten rolling on the throttle at 4000 in 1st gear my bike would "predictably" rotate to about 45 degrees? Look, I can be as stupid as the next guy when I'm in first and think I'm in second, and learned that lesson back when an H1 was a hot bike. I hope you like the torque of your 12 when you get it, and I hope you think of the guy with a whole two weeks of riding experience that caught his before it looped when you bust your tailight "launching on just a whiff of throttle". | ||
| Xbolt12 |
Westozzie, On the drop-in and lean, I found getting rid of the (heavy) stock exhaust can changed that as well as getting rid of those 207 Dunlops. Putting on M1 metzlers drops the front by 7mm which quickens things up and the rounded profile stops the stand-up when trail-braking. Pirelli Diablo Corsas are more stable and part of that might be a shorter rear tire than the M1, but unfortunately my impatience meant I never got to compare. BTW, 98 rwhp on a Dynojet appears to be easily obtained now on the 12-talk to Al at American Sport Bike. | ||
| Scbueller |
I own an 03r and an 03s. The r has a mean head shake when lifting your weight off the bars a tad bit. Harley said it was normal. The s seems fine, much more planted on wheelies. both do see the sky way too often in the twisties. I rode a 06 636 and was just as fast on that as I was on the r. 135mph sucks but the attention it gets from the ladies compared to my buddies cbrs and ninjas. Someone make a 6th gear 160mph please! | ||
| Blake |
"People who say (that XBs handle better than bikes like the GSXR1000) obviously have not had the chance to ride a GSXR or any other modern Japanese sportbike for any length of time." Sound like you are calling liars those of us including the journalists who have come to that very conclusion. That would be unfortunate. Suggest you rethink your ego and presumed superiority in judging the handling characteristics of motorcycles. I accept your opinion as your opinion. I won't call you a liar or hold myself up as the man with the final expert say in the matter. Suggest you have the humility to do the same.  The very best irrefutable evidence supporting the conclusion that the XBs handle better than other sportbikes is the amazing race win virtually right out of the box of a Buell XB9R at Loudon in Spring of 2002. Louden is a very tight technical track. The race was the FUSA National Sportbike race, a HP limited class dominated by the best latest IL4 repli-racers Japan Inc had to offer. It was a dry race against a horde of 600 Supersport racing machines and Jeff Wood won it on his Buell XB9R racing machine. You don't win a race like that against worthy skilled competition on a brand new out of the box XB9R racing machine with nary any development time if the bike doesn't outhandle its competition. Period. (Message edited by blake on December 10, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
The reporting by www.motorcycle.com on the handling prowess of the XB9R tends to support the idea that the XB does indeed outhandle other sport bikes...
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| Bt_rider |
135? is that top speed ? Guess i'll have to hang on to the SV for my favorite set of sweepers.. So is it ill handiling or a scapel ,you guys are confusing me ,is it going to get spanked by every jap 600 that passes by or not? | ||
| Westozzie |
Whew! You guys sure don't like to hear any criticism do you?! Ralf, you said you had 2 weeks riding experience. Could that be why your XB12 does "sudden unexpected wheelies"? What are you doing riding a 1200cc anyway? Open class sportbikes are not ideal beginners machines. [As an aside: When I had only 2 weeks of experience, I found my 1979 Honda XL185S doing "unexpected wheelies" every time I changed from 1st to 2nd. I shudder to think what would have happened if I'd had an XB12!] I don't claim to be the world's best rider but I have 25 years of riding experience and I have been a rider training instructor for over 10 years. I can tell you that one reason I am trading up from an XB9R to an XB12R is because the XB9 doesn't wheelie easily enough! As for unexpected wheelies, any Japanese 1000 I4 will wheelie in 2nd, 3rd and even 4th if you are hamfisted with the throttle and careless with your body position if/when you hit bumps or go over crests in the road. Be very careful if you ever get to ride one. Be careful on your XB12 too - there's way too much torque and power there for a beginner. As for my comments on the XB: My views are shared by many magazine testers (both hardcopy and online). You can bury your head in the sand like an ostrich or face up to reality (which is not so bad) even if it may not always be as palatable as you'd like. Here is (American) "Sportrider" mag's opinion on the Firebolt's handling if you think I don't know what I'm talking about: "With the stock suspension settings, the front-end geometry-21 degrees of rake and 84mm of trail-is so steep that the bike is reluctant to turn. It's a contradiction as aggressive geometry usually means light and quick steering, but there is more to handling than just numbers. With such a steep rake and so little trail, the forces acting on the front tire's contact patch work to turn the bars further into the direction of a turn, countersteering and forcing the bike to stand up. The situation is even worse under braking when the rake tightens up even more, and a huge amount of force is required on the bars just to hold a line in midturn. Experimenting with the geometry by altering front and rear preload and fork-tube height, it's possible to lessen this effect significantly. However, as we made the geometry more conservative and gradually removed the bike's tendency to stand up, the steering became heavier and heavier-we couldn't find a decent compromise in a full day's riding. The situation was exacerbated by the fact that the clip-ons are so far forward of the steering stem. A good portion of any inputs made are for naught, as the bars need to turn to the side quite a bit in order to influence the steering in any way." 2nd Opinion by Kent Kunitsugu: "The chassis numbers would suggest a four-stroke TZ250, but the actual result is more akin to an average 600 sportbike. Although displaying excellent stability, it took some serious fiddling with the suspension and chassis ride heights before the Buell would turn comfortably, and even then it required some effort to flick into the corner." (Message edited by westozzie on December 11, 2005) | ||
| Perry |
I guess the point is... it depends on you! The Buell doesn't have the hp or top speed of the inline 4 bikes, but it can hang with, or outrun them in the technical twisties. Some seem to feel it "ill handling" even while they are outrunning an R1.  | ||
| Brucelee |
Sample size of two. I had an 02 Ninja 600 that was plenty fast straight up. At least with me on it, this bike did NOT handle anywhere near as well as my XB9s. I am an OK rider at best when it comes to speed, so take it with a grain of salt. I am much faster on the XB. BTW-I hated the Ninja. Sold it in 6 months. | ||
| Blake |
"Whew! You guys sure don't like to hear any criticism do you?!" What makes you say that? Because we happen to strongly disagree with your opinion?  "You can bury your head in the sand like an ostrich or face up to reality even if it may not always be as palatable as you'd like." That kind of confrontational content is absolutely not welcome on this board. Did you already forget the policy to which you agreed when registering? You'll not be reminded of it again. The Buell won the race at Louden. Heavier bike, less HP, but it won the race, most likely because it handles better. Is that what one learns from having one's head in the sand? You have impressive credentials, kinda. You ever race? I have. I've lapped the same track on the same day on Japanese IL4 repli-racers too. I stand by my opinion of which bike handles better. It ain't even close. If a bike feels differently, reacts differently to rider inputs, but gets around the track or through the twisty turnies better, does it or does it not handle better? (Message edited by blake on December 10, 2005) | ||
| Westozzie |
"That kind of confrontational content is absolutely not welcome on this board. Did you already forget the policy to which you agreed when registering? You'll not be reminded of it again." huh?  I just gave my (what I think is an informed) opinion and got flamed. I never called anyone a liar. I would however call your comments confrontational: 1) "Sound like you are calling liars those of us...." 2) "Suggest you rethink your ego and presumed superiority in judging the handling characteristics of motorcycles...." Ego? Humility? You can talk with comments like this one: "You have impressive credentials, kinda. You ever race? I have." Chill out Dude. I'm on your side. I like and own Buells. Let's remember that we're talking about motorcycles here - not religion or politics. There's no need for all the aggro and threats. I have my opinion and you have yours. Let's agree to disagree. I can assure you that when I jump on the XB after riding the blade it's obvious that the blade flicks from side-side much quicker and doesn't stand up under brakes in a corner as much. Quite a few testers in magazines and online in Australia, UK and the US agree with me. Take it or leave it. There's no need for threats and personal attacks. (Message edited by westozzie on December 10, 2005) | ||
| Dana P. |
My 12 doesn't stand up under braking.It did at one time.....then the Dunlops came off....they don't belong on the bike.Sounds like you haven't spent to much time around Buell.But the again either has SportRider.I wonder whats in next months issue....Ummm maybe another 600 or 1000 comparo shootout??Magazine sucks. | ||
| Westozzie |
"My 12 doesn't stand up under braking.It did at one time.....then the Dunlops came off....they don't belong on the bike.Sounds like you haven't spent to much time around Buell." I had an XB9R for just over a year - that should be enough to make a fair assessment. I wore out the original Dunlops after 3500km. When I opined that the Blade turns much quicker and doesn't stand up in corners under brakes as much - both my 954 Blade and the XB9R were fitted with Bridgestones - so it was a fair comparison. Whether you are a fan of Sportrider mag or not - the fact is that many other testers and reviewers around the world made the same comments. To me that would mean that there must be some truth to these comments. It's important to remember that this does not mean that the XBs handle badly - Ducatis have often been described as slower steering than Japanese sportbikes - and no one is saying they handle badly. All I'm saying is you'd have to be a one-eyed Buell fan to state that Buells are flawless. Let's face it they have some quirks - but nothing to be too concerned about. No one buys a Buell to win races. Even Eric Buell says XBs were designed to be fun street bikes - not race bikes. On a similar note, the 954 Fireblade was criticised for being too flighty, and having too little top end power compared to the R1 and GSXR1000. Maybe so, but the Fireblade designer Tadeo Baba didn't take offense (and I don't take offense). He merely stated that he designed it to be a great a street bike (which it is) that could be taken to the track - not the otherway round. As Baba-san said, Honda had the RC45 and RC51 for racing. So what if the 954 wasn't successful in racing? I DON'T CARE if people say the GSXR1000 or R1 are faster, better, etc than my 954. I prefer the 600 on steroids feel of the 954. Similarly, I don't care if the XB12R can't beat a Yamazuki 1000RRR around a track or on the street - I've said why I like XBs and why I'm buying a second one. If some of you don't like my opinion and my reasoning - tough luck. Like I said, it's my 2 cents worth (and my AU$18,500 worth for that matter). | ||
| Westozzie |
Bt_rider asked: "135? is that top speed ? Guess i'll have to hang on to the SV for my favorite set of sweepers.. So is it ill handiling or a scapel ,you guys are confusing me ,is it going to get spanked by every jap 600 that passes by or not?" A Buell XB-R is not quite a scalpel but what it lacks in flickablility it makes up for in the ease with which it can drive out of corners. If you get spanked by any other bike on winding roads blame your riding - not the bike. I have ridden with many people over the years on all sorts of bikes and, unless we are talking about rocketship straightline speeds or racing, it's all about the rider rather than the machine. (Even in racing, people used to say that Rossi won because he was on a Honda. Well, what do they say now that he's on a Yamaha?). Whether 135mph is fast enough for you is for you to decide. I haven't ridden an SV but I have ridden a TLR1000R and the Buell XB9R is a better handling machine (at least up to 160kph/100mph) and is also more comfortable. In any event, I think that while the SV may be a competent bike it lacks the character of a Buell. I'd lose the SV and get the XB12R or, if it's too slow for you, get an VTR1000R/RC51. | ||
| Blake |
"If some of you don't like my opinion and my reasoning - tough luck." It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. It is simply that some have a different opinion. You shouldn't let that threaten you, just like we shouldn't let your opinion threaten our own egos. If no one buys a Buell to win a race, how is it that eight out of the top ten contestants for the season championship in FUSA Thunderbike were on Buells? I'm looking forward to see what kind of racing machine Buell is rumored to be fielding this year at Daytona. I just keep hearing that "you won't want to miss the race this coming year." They'll be going up against the fasted IL4 600cc bikes on the planet. Daytona is a brutal test of man and machine. If Buell does indeed field a competitive machine that is just able to complete the race, that will be a huge accomplishment. BT, If you like to ride around on public roads at 135+ mph, then a Buell is not for you. | ||
| Fl_billy |
"In any event, I think that while the SV may be a competent bike it lacks the character of a Buell. I'd lose the SV and get the XB12R or, if it's too slow for you, get an VTR1000R/RC51." Agreed. The SV has a brilliant motor with the most linear power delivery of any big twin I have ever ridden. The handling was decent at sub-triple digit speeds but got a little sketchy above that. I can say from firsthand experience that my SV1K made me plain nervous when I took it through my favorite set of bumpy sweepers at 120 (Snake Road in S. FL - the fast guys take it at over 150....). I can take the Buell through there with no worries at 125 or 130. Again, if you ride over 135 on a regular basis, the Buell may not be for you, but IMO, neither is the SV. Pick up a current (or even last gen.) RC51 or a used TLR for less money than you would spend on the Buell and have a big twin that will do 160+. Me, I very rarely do over 120 anyway, so the Buell is my choice for big twin "sport fighter". Good luck with your choice! Billy | ||
| Spatten1 |
The unexpected wheelie comment from Ozz was pretty funny. I mean, come on, if you go from 90HP to 150HP you are definitely more likely to have an unexpected wheelie. I can't imagine believing the Buell has scary power if you've ridden modern Japanese bikes before. I do think this site gets a bit myopic and defensive. That may be normal for an enthusiast site, I don't know, this is the only one I've spent any time on. | ||
| Westozzie |
Blake wrote: "It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. It is simply that some have a different opinion. You shouldn't let that threaten you, just like we shouldn't let your opinion threaten our own egos." Agreed. Shake hands? | ||
| Spatten1 |
I do not find the Buell tough to change lines with as Ozz said. While there is twitchiness in mid corner body position adjustments (which you should not do anyway), I also feel like I can change lines easily, you just have to use the handlebars and keep your body position the same. Standing up in corners on the brakes - Try a ZX11 with D207s some time. I'm lucky to still be alive. Get Pirellis for your Buell. | ||
| Westozzie |
Spatten1 wrote: "I do not find the Buell tough to change lines with as Ozz said." It's not "tough to change lines" in absolute terms. It's a relative thing. Depends what you compare it to. Don't get too caught up on it. It's like what motorcyclist online wrote when they compared the CBR954 to the GSXR1000: "The Suzuki is by no means slow- or heavy-steering, but ridden right after the Honda it is." (Message edited by westozzie on December 11, 2005) | ||
| Xlcr |
So what's your explanation of why England's Bike magazine proclaimed it the best handling bike of all time? I noticed you have only quoted Sport Bike, though you claim other magazines say the same. What others? Motorcyclist, maybe. But they are actually the same people, and Mitch Boehm's long-standing feud with Erik Buell makes whatever they say highly suspect. Among others, Cycle World and Performance Bike don't agree with you either. I find it odd that there are so many out there that feel the need for some sort of motorcycle pecking order, and insist that it's OK to like Buells, and even own them, as long as one sticks to the party line, and doesn't commit the 'heresy' of claiming Buells are actually as good as other brands. (Message edited by xlcr on December 11, 2005) | ||
| Duc_htr |
Maybe its a history thing... your 4 main asian companies along with a few european companies have always been the leaders in races and as the popularity grows it continues to be this way... I have seen it with computers also... back when IBM HP Compaq etc were ruling the roost but when Dell showed up on the scene nobody really believed that a company who only delivered through mail order was going to make it... but sure enough they have become one of the leading manufacturers... and although Harley has been around the longest no one thinks a harley motor could ever outperform one of the other sportbike manufacturers... the wonderful thing about motorcycle racing is its not drag racing... so power is only good when it can be used... and its not available when your knee is on the ground... I think eric would put more power if it was avail. but he is limited to a point... at least he has been... but then again its not about pure HP... its about mph out of a corner and carrying into the next... at least on your technical tracks... so why can buell not be one of the best... who would think a clunky harley v-twin could perform as well as the refined Duc... thank god the XB is not all about motor... thats the difference in that sense... Its the only bike I would own which may not say a lot, but it does say I believe in their product... and buell had a rough start with their original tubers and problems... (not bashing tubers) but they have produced a bike that is far better looking and handles much different than the cookie cutters of this era... PS anybody seen any pics of the newer prototype cookie cutters... they sure have some engineering similarities to the XBs.... Eric... Win us a championship so we can prove to these guys what we already know   (Message edited by Duc_htr on December 11, 2005) | ||
| Whodom |
So what's your explanation of why England's Bike magazine proclaimed it the best handling bike of all time? Just to be 100% accurate, "Bike" magazine declared the XB12R the best cornering bike of all time. | ||
| Buellshyter |
What rumors about Buell and Daytona? | ||
| Tcskeptic |
"I find it odd that there are so many out there that feel the need for some sort of motorcycle pecking order, and insist that it's OK to like Buells, and even own them, as long as one sticks to the party line, and doesn't commit the 'heresy' of claiming Buells are actually as good as other brands." Amen and nicely said. I'm getting a little tired of the sentiment myself. As a long time Mac owner and enthusiast I recognize a bunch of parallels between Mac ownership and Buell ownership. Macs and Buells are products both of which are built around a different set of design and aesthetic priorities than the bulk of competing products. However, many comparisons with them compare against the design priorities of the majority, and therefore cast the product in a poor light. Because of this they seem to inspire both passionate owners, and a group for which the thought of someone else owning one drives absolutely bat •••• crazy. I suspect this is because the act of choosing to own one of these odd products necessarily implies the rejection of the values of the majority. Or I could just be full of hot air. |
