| Author | Message | ||
     Bollert |
Force told me the Force Streetfighter Gen 2 pipe will fit on the 12, but will have tuning issues. I have the race ECM, but due to a crash I'm replacing the exhaust. Do we have any data on this board regarding tuning the Force Pipe on the XB-12? | ||
| Johnk3 |
Do we have any data on this board regarding tuning the Force Pipe on the XB-12? lots. search on m1combat | ||
| Bollert |
Man, you aren't kidding, but I'm getting a headache trying to locate specific threads discussing the Force and the XB-12R. Even more interesting would be to find out if I only need the Race ECM, or an additional fuel management device. | ||
| Hogs |
Hey Ballert, I have been running the force just the can on my 12 r since last year no plms, yes I run the race ecm as well , some had plms. running the force system , but I think IF you just pick up a Can and use it on your stock 12 header all will be fine.......... | ||
| M1combat |
I too recommend the stock header route with the Force "muffler". I haven't tried it myself so I don't know exactly what the details of the curve will be but I'm running a Force header, "muffler", and a PCIII. If you go with the full system AND chop your airbox I have a good custom tuned and then tweaked by me map that works pretty well. I'm running the race ECM too... What you'll find is that you MUST remove a good deal of fuell around 2500RPM or the bike will run so rich it'll be ugly. Very ugly. If you spend time cruising at 3500, the bike will adjust it AFV for that range, then you'll drop to 2500 and run VERY rich. If you cruise for a while at 2500 it'll adjust the AFV for that, then when you get on it you'll run VERY lean to the top. Not a good situation. Search some of my posts and you'll find where I've posted what "I" think are the best practices for installing and tuning a PCIII and a TFI. My recommendation though... Screw Force motor products. They can go pound sand. My Gen-1 broke in less than a week (luckily I got it off of Ebay for $388 brand new or I would have been very mad). I've got about eight pounds of extra metal welded onto it and it finally stopped breaking the chin spoiler mounts. Get a Drummer. I have one of those too and the power delivery is just "everywhere". Granted... I personally like the WOT top fuel dragster sound and the Force pipe DOES make VERY good power in the mid range and as good as most pipes to the top. It just SUCKS below 3K. | ||
| Bollert |
Ouch, I may have jumped too soon. I picked up the Gen 2 Force for $500 brand new. At that price, maybe I won't lose much if I sell it, but I needed a full system because my header and Buell race muffler were damaged in my crash. The Force was actually cheaper than replacing stock. The race muffler is not bad. I do have the stock muffler as well. By the way, did I understand you correctly that I will need the PCIII with my race ECM for it to run decent? | ||
| M1combat |
You can almost certainly use the stock ECM but yes, you WILL need a PCIII or some other form of fuel tuning device that will allow you to remove fuel. Just FYI... I think the Gen 2 pipe will serve you MUCH better than my Gen 1 did for me. I doubt you'll have issues. My pipe ONLY had issues with the chin spoiler mounting system on the Gen 1 "Muffler". They eliminated that with the Gen 2 so you should be OK. If you do go with a PCIII (I've had great luck with mine) I have good maps for the Force header/Force "muffler" combo and the Force header/Drummer muffler combo. The bike will indeed "run" without the PCIII, but I very strongly recommend against it. You will either be VERY rich at 2500 or VERY lean from 3500 up depending on what RPM range you settle the AFV at. | ||
| Cochise |
I have also looked into this setup. Scott Berry in Derry, NH used a setup with an older style Force pipe, while using the D&D can, then they hooked it up to a Techlusion Box. Before you ask, is Scott Qualified, yes he is, he has Full Factory support and is a Buell trained Mechanic. I REALLY want the Force for mine, yet, alas, Johnny Force hasn't finished the twelve yet. The pipe for the nine will work, yes, but the pipe diameter is smaller than the twelve, so it may not breath as well. | ||
| Glitch |
M1 speaks the truth. | ||
| Bollert |
Thanks everyone. Buying a PCIII now makes the Force not such a good deal at $500, but oh well, I'm stuck with it now. I suppose I should have some fun with it (the sound) Aside from track days/sport riding, I hang out at some biker bars too, so it might be fun and interesting, no? At least in that crowd I won't be singled out for noise. My ZX-10R is all stock, so I can ride that if I'm tired of the noise. M1, I guess I'll look for a good deal on a PCIII. Do I need the USB model? Any recommendations for good price? | ||
| M1combat |
Get a PCIII for the X1 or S3. The difference between the two models is the length of the wiring harnesses as I recall. IMO, you need a PCIII for ANY modification that you do. Even chopping the airbox. You'll most certainly need one if you do cams, heads, bore etc so.... You may look into other solutions as well, but if you go PCIII, I can supply a map. | ||
| Bollert |
Something else dawned on me. How will the dealer tune the TPS and AFV with a PCIII installed? I don't know anything about the scanalyzer. I may go with the stock header and sell the Gen 2 headers. That would solve all this I would guess. Maybe some Gen 1 guys might want to buy. Does Gen 1 apply to the pipes or the muffler? | ||
| M1combat |
Gen 2 applies to both. The deleted the chin spoiler mounts and the header uses springs to hold it together. I would go with the whole system if you do it. At least see if you like it AND I can give you a map for it. The map won't be perfect for any bike other than mine but it should be close enough by all means. Just for the record... My Force header/Drummer combo does not suffer on the low end. The TPS is a separate thing and the PCIII merely taps into the green wire (confirm that) from the TPS and gets a reading. The AFV is internal to the ECM and is unaffected by the PCIII as long as you leave "The Box" open like it says here... http://www.powercommander.com/man_chp4_pg17.shtml Do a search for "M1Combat PCIII" and read all of that  . | ||
| Bollert |
Another problem: PCIII not available for Buell any longer. | ||
| Glitch |
Another problem: PCIII not available for Buell any longer. They are out there, check the classifieds here, and check e-bay. You'll want one for an X1 or an S3, they never made one for the XB. You'd think they would though, or maybe they don't offer them because they made more than there were bikes, I've not seen a shortage of them, ever. | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah... They're all over the place and not very expensive at all. Just read that article up there and leave "The Box" open. Also, use a "1" in the enrichment area. Also, extend "The Box" to the right to 4500RPM. The XB stays in closed loop for longer and the trick to using a PC successfully is to not tune the bike in the closed loop area. Be SURE to get the Hi-Po O2 sensor as well. That article says that you can tune the box with the sensor but I don't believe them. In any case, get the PCIII and the O2, and then lemme know and I'll e-mail you a map . | ||
| M1combat |
Right here... Search for "Buell power commander" on Ebay. There are three listed right now. Keep in mind too that ALL K&N PCII's for Buells are incorrectly badged PCIII's... I don't know which has the longer harness but I'm pretty sure that's the only difference between the X1 and S3 model PCIII. Well, that and the map that is loaded by default, but you won't want to use that anyway. Just so you know, I've seen new PCIIIs sold on Ebay for $50. | ||
| Cochise |
Techlusion Box is still out there, and they WILL work on the XB's. | ||
| Bollert |
Do I need the longer harness? I did see the PC IIs on e-bay.Incorrectly badged PC IIIs? How did you learn that?I sure do appreciate this M1. | ||
| Bollert |
Here is one for an S3T on ebay K&N 83804-211 BUELL Power Commander NIB, and one for an X-1 that is up to $139 | ||
| Nasty73z |
Does anyone have dyno numbers for a Force-piped XB12? I want the pipe despite what everyone says and would like to see some numbers. I am planning on the gen 2 Force, FAST kit, and PCIII. | ||
| Cochise |
Nasty, I don't think there are that many people that had a XB12 with Force long enough to get them dyno'd. The reason is, they made some, but they didn't work and they quit making them. There are only like 4 people that work there at Force and they are still working and testing on the pipes for the 12, being that the 12 pipes have larger diameters. (Message edited by cochise on November 27, 2005) | ||
| Nasty73z |
Sorry Cochise, I meant anyone that put the XB9 Force system on a XB12. You can get a complete Force XB9 system on eBay for around $500 bucks, but if it won't help power at all even being fully tuned then I won't waste my time. But they look badass and sound even better (I like loud, you should hear my '73 Z28). So if M1combat or anyone else has dynoed their bikes I want to know the results. (Message edited by Nasty73z on November 27, 2005) | ||
| Cochise |
No problem, Nasty. I have been waiting since '04 to get the 12 pipe from Force. They should be ready soon, hopefully. I am planning on calling them soon and I can send you an email when I do. | ||
| Bollert |
Looks like I won the PCII from KN Auctions for $50. It's for 1999-2002 Buell S-3/S-3T. M1, guess I'll be needing some help once the Force pipe is installed. Do I need to install the pipe and take it to the dealer for TPS reset, then install mapped Power Commander? Thanks | ||
| M1combat |
You shouldn't need the TPS reset at all. Don't even try a techlusion with a Force pipe. You will NEED to remove fuel at 2K and 2500 RPM and you can't do it with a techlusion. Install the PCIII, and get a laptop or PC with a serial port. Ping me offline at Don.Hann at co dot yavapai dot az dot us I'll get the Force map to you. I assume you have the K&N filter? If not, go pick one up. I also have a chopped airbox but that should make a huge difference in the map so you should be OK without it. The PCIII install instructions indicate that you need to tap into the ?green? wire from the TPS. You'll need to cut the connector off that wire because it's the wrong type for an XB and use a nother type that taps in-line into a wire. I used a Deutsch connector for mine, but there are better types. You'll have to strip back some black wire shielding to get to the three wires. I remember that the color they wanted you to use was the correct color, I just can't remember which one it was . Other than that, it's pretty straight forward IF you have small hands. I don't, so connecting the injectors was a BEEEOTCH! I grounded the PCIII to the rear bolt that holds the coil in place. If you have any more questions just ask. | ||
| Bollert |
*Update* Force Pipe never came. Already bought the Power Commander too... The e-Bay seller Dan said Force ran out of Jet-Hot version and only had black left. I don't see how as the e-bay listing had a number attached, but oh well. I could probably use the $500 for something else. I would like a loud ••• muffler that sounds great and runs very good. I'm a little tired of the Pro-Series. no more tuning woes, right? Now, I have to decide if I want to keep the Power Commander. Probably will for later, maybe when 12R version of Force Pipe comes out. |
