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M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 02:49 pm: | 
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It's coming. The stock and race ECM's have been cracked. The race ECM is the one to have because it's got six more circuits than the stock ECM. The important ones are a better accelerator pump circuit and a deceleration leaning circuit.
It's out there  . |
M_singer
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 02:53 pm: |
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M1combat wrote
"Well... the dyno's in question measure HP at the rear wheel. The gearing and RPM's don't matter squat. 100HP at the rear wheel is 100HP at the rear wheel. 100HP is capable of accelerating a certain mass to a certain velocity in a certain amount of time."
Yes dynos measure hp at the rear wheel, but it is torque at the rear wheel that accelerates the bike. By making hp at higher rpms you can take advantage of gearing to produce more torque at the rear wheel at any given road speed which if you do the math also translates into more hp.
You sound like you disagree with some of my posts by your tone but nothing that you posted is contrary to what I posted so I am a bit confused with what point you are trying to make? |
M_singer
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 03:11 pm: |
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Buellerx, We don't disagree that the power band of an Buell is far more practical and usable (on the street) then that of a jap 600 super sport.
Keep in mind though that you are comparing a 600 cc I-4 to your V twin. If you compare your bike to my 1157 cc I-4 you will find that not only does my bike make more torque in the mid range (80 ft-bls to be exact) then your twin but it has a 10800 rpm rev limiter. I can loft the front wheel at 3k rpms with just a flick of the throttle. I have rode a 2005 XB12S and there is no where in the rpm range where it pulls as hard as my bike and when the XB is on the rev limiter my bike is just getting started. My bike is technology of the mid 80's. The newer bikes are much more powerful.
Now I understand that hp isn't everything and I know full well that I can make it though a twisty road faster on an XB12S then I can on my Bandit 1200. I'm not beating up on the XB, but trying to argue that the XB’s motor’s power compares favorably with jap bikes is a little ridiculous. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 03:47 pm: |
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I don't think that's the case Gowindward...
M_Singer - I'm only saying that HP at the rear wheel is HP at the rear wheel. I could care less how we get there. RPM or torque... it makes no difference at all. What DOES make a difference is mass and aero efficiency.
I agree though, for a racetrack where it's easier to keep a 600 in it's power band, the IL4 is slightly superior. On a tight canyon road though... staying in the same gear is helpful. I'm talking about canyon roads that are much tighter than a tight racetrack. Places where you can't really use the RPM so much.
I guess where we're saying different things is that I'm kepping my end of the conversation at the rear wheel. After torque multiplication has run it's course. I understand the benefits of torque multiplication (I'm a huge race fan, particularly F1). They "only" have 300lbs of torque, but make nearly 1000BHP. HP is the king, but only if you can access it by getting to the RPM's that make it possible and ONLY when you aren't leaned over very far.
It's not that I disagree with your post exactly. It's just that when you remove the racetrack and add the street, the best solution is to have a package that's "tuned" for the street. That means lower the RPMs, raise the torque because the useful speeds are lower. The whole top half of a modern IL4 1000 is wasted on the street because if you use it, you're likely going to jail. I have no problems with giving up the top half. What I get in return is a bike that's easier to ride fast in a real world situation (Canyon road). It requires less throttle control and less shifting. It's easier to be smooth and if I'm resigned to not using the top half of a bike that's a LOT more than is needed on a street... I'm happy to give it up for those benefits. |
M_singer
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 04:07 pm: |
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M1combat, I agree with you about low end torque being more useable on tight twisty roads. Not all I-4's lack low end grunt though. Mine sure doesn't! |
Rhun
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 04:08 pm: |
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m1combat care to elaborate "it's coming. The stock and race ECM's have been cracked. The race ECM is the one to have because it's got six more circuits than the stock ECM. The important ones are a better accelerator pump circuit and a deceleration leaning circuit." There is a stock EMC, a race EMC and a Racing EMC for pro licensed. Is there a fourth coming? |
Spike
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 04:29 pm: |
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quote:It's coming. The stock and race ECM's have been cracked. The race ECM is the one to have because it's got six more circuits than the stock ECM. The important ones are a better accelerator pump circuit and a deceleration leaning circuit.
I hope in all the cracking they figure out how to make the frickin' XB12 race ECM idle. Maybe then my race ECM can become more than a $200 paper weight.
Frankly, the whole issue of XB12 fuel delivery and power output irks me. I've purchased the entire race kit, a drummer, and the TFi but none of it has made my bike run any smoother or make any more power than it did when it was stock. |
CJXB
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 04:37 pm: |
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In the future please post topics like this to the applicable topic in the Knowledge Vault. We'll be moving this one there soon. Thanks for helping to get BadWeB organized. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 05:37 pm: |
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If you're not making more power than stock with a drummer and TFI you're doing something wrong.
The ECM has been cracked. Not a "new" ECM. A third party has figured out how to manipulate the ECM. WRT idling getting smoother... It's a freakin' long stroke, single crank journal, 45 degree V-twin... That's the nature of the beast. Well, that or you're out of adjustment somewhere... |
Spike
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 09:07 pm: |
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quote:If you're not making more power than stock with a drummer and TFI you're doing something wrong.
I guess I need to clarify, I haven't dynoed the bike with the drummer and the TFI. It has been dynoed stock, with the complete race kit, with just the race air cleaner, and dynoed with the drummer installed and the snorkel removed. All the runs were made on the same dyno. The highest number I've ever seen out of it was 92rwhp and that was with just the race air cleaner. The next highest run was 89.6rwhp, it was bone stock at the time. FWIW, my drummer is one of the 9 drummers and not a 12 drummer. I've dynoed mine back to back with another XB12 with the 12 drummer, the 12 drummer clearly made more power up top. If I dynoed the bike now with the drummer and the TFI it would likely make more power than stock. However, it has been my experience that dyno time is expensive and disappointing. My wallet and I aren't very enthusiastic about spending more time on the dyno.
quote:WRT idling getting smoother... It's a freakin' long stroke, single crank journal, 45 degree V-twin... That's the nature of the beast. Well, that or you're out of adjustment somewhere...
It's not so much an issue of smooth, but I do expect it to be steady. I have some 40k miles on Buells and I worked at a Harley dealer for over 3 years. I'm aware of the lumpy off-beat idle that these motors are supposed to have. The fact remains that my XB12 is inconsistent at best. Some days it idles high, some days it idles low. Most days it stumbles back and forth. Some days it decides to spit and cough when putting it under a light load at part throttle conditions. Some days it runs perfect. With the race ECM it would stumble and stall repeatedly until it was warmed up. Words can't express what it's like to be gearing up to ride your throbbing beast of a motorcycle while basking in the wonderful resonance of it's exhaust note at idle only to have it stumble and stall, immediately replacing the sound of thunderous exhaust with the horrific sound of a squealing fuel pump. I can name three other XB owners who have struggled with the exact same idle issue when using the race ECM. This is not to say that all Buells run rough. I've ridden many that run flawlessly, I just can't say the same for mine.
It would be really nice so find out the bike was merely out of adjustment, but where? The static timing has been set by a factory-trained (and very enthusiastic) Buell tech, the TPS has been reset more times than I care to count, it's been checked for intake leaks multiple times, the plugs are clean, and it's never thrown a code. What else is there? A bad sensor? Which one? Who's going to pay to throw parts at it?
This is not to say that I don't absolutely love my XB, it just has some minor issues that annoy me. Some days they annoy me more than others. Today is one of those days. It's probably because I spent the morning reading sacborg. |
Typeone
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 09:33 pm: |
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Amen, Spike. You're not alone unfortunately. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 11:28 pm: |
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Well, sorry if I sounded a little harsh (apparently I'm prone to it  ).
What's the idle set to?
I have a race ECM and mine idles well at about 900RPM. I turn it up a tad for the winter though.
Spark plugs? They are reasonably easy to foul on an XB.
Check the resistance in the coils? |
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 01:36 pm: |
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M1- no worries about sounding harsh, I've been on both sides of this coin.
When fully warmed up the idle was set to ~1100rpm at my last TPS reset. The manual states to set the idle between 1050-1150rpm. When plugged up to a digital tech you can watch the idle bounce around in a ~50rpm range, so I tried to set it as close to 1100rpm as possible. The problem is that the idle setting doesn't appear to be static. Yesterday after leaving work and riding for about 5 minutes I was stopped at a light and I noticed the idle was well below 1k rpm, I'd guess it was 850-900rpm. I thought about turning it up when I got home, but when I pulled into the garage the idle was sitting just a hair above 1k rpm, occasionally bouncing high enough reveal the line pointing towards the 1 on the tach. It's almost like the bike could use a manual choke. At the same time, some days I'm amazed with the XBs ability to handle cold weather. I've come out on ~35 degree winter mornings after leaving the bike parked outside all night only to pull the cover off, turn the key to ON, press the starter, and hear the bike fire to life after what seemed like less than a full revolution and immediately settle into a relatively stable 1k rpm idle. Mornings like that would have you wondering if your carbed bike would start at all and would make even the Jap bikes have to sit for a minute or two on full choke before tolerating any throttle input.
I've changed the plugs two or three times, they've yet to look dirty or even worn. I'm currently running NGK Iridium plugs in the stock heat range. They don't appear to be any better than stock, so I'll probably switch back to the 10R12As next time I change them.
I haven't checked the coils, I might look into that when I have time.
What does have my attention recently is the fuel pump. As I noted earlier, when the bike stumbles and stalls the fuel pump is usually quite loud. I've also noticed all along that when the bike stumbles at idle you can hear the pitch of the fuel pump change. I've often wondered if that change in pitch was due to the drop in RPM possibly causing a reduction in the voltage being delivered to the fuel pump or if it was the other way around and the change in pitch was somehow what caused the idle to stumble. With the recent and somewhat "hushed" news that the old fuel pumps would sometimes get air trapped in the regulator and sometimes starve under heavy braking, I can't help but wonder if the random stumble at idle is caused by the fuel pump as well.
On another subject, I was helping my brother in law research new motorcycles this morning. He already owns a Ducati 999, but he's looking for a naked streetfighter that's better suited to street use and longer rides. He's got his eye on the S4R and the MV Brutale. I think he should get a Tuono, but he thinks the Aprilias are a bit too Japanese. What I realized while researching the latest semi-exotics is that there still isn't a bike on the market that could replace my Firebolt. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 02:05 pm: |
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Good to hear the fact that it won't be replace . BTW, the Brutale sounds EVIL. One of the nicest sounding bikes I've heard aside from a Buell with a Force pipe.
Do you let the bike warm up? I never move my bike until the clock has ticked over twice. Anywhere from one to two minutes. Even when I'm in a hurry. |
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 02:54 pm: |
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I normally let the bike warm up before riding away, but I don't time it and it varies depending on the temperature. Lately in the mornings I roll the bike outside and start it so it gets to sit and idle while I put on my jacket/helmet/gloves and take the time to lock the garage. On lunch breaks and after work when the bike has been sitting outside in ~80 degree weather I usually just let the bike warm up while I put my helmet/gloves on. Just for reference, I usually take my time putting my gear on. I probably spend the better part of a full minute just putting my gloves on. In the winter I let the bike warm up much longer. At one point I even had one of the sales guys from the HD dealer where I worked tell me that I was letting the bike warm up too long. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 03:48 pm: |
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Interesting.
I'd check plug, wire and coil resistance. |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 07:45 pm: |
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Spike, it may be a long shot, but from my experiences with a wideband 02 sensor on the XB, the idle mixture from the stock ecm is quite lean and if it goes just a bit too lean then the bike will have a very hard time maintaining a good idle. When you said it started fine at ~35, then I'm wondering if the air temp sensor is out of tolerance. The air temp sensor is fairly critical to correct fuel delivery. There are resistance specs in the manual and the resistance can be measured between pins 7 and 10 on the grey ecm connector (pull it from the ecm before measuring).
This may not be your problem but it could be one more thing to eliminate and costs nothing to check. (Maybe you've already done this...) |
Alex
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 02:26 am: |
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Spike,
check if the TPS sensor allows to enter bypass air to the throttle body (You may use brake parts cleaner to spray around the sensor watching any influence on rpm - although I don´t like this method as brake parts cleaner is highly flammable, so be very careful if You decide to do so). You may use a silicon based gasket sealer to seal it if it does. Remember to have the TPS reset after reassembly.
Best regards
Alex |
Buellishxx
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 02:54 pm: |
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Another issue for consideration is the time line on the dyno. It would be interesting to see the hp graphs with time as the baseline.
Here's a dyno from Jardine. Looks good above 3500 rpm which is fine for track but not so good for street.  |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 09:23 am: |
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Why no good for street? the dip in torque just off idle? |
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