| Author | Message | ||
     Shred |
This is my second XB. First was a 9R, now have a 12R. When I ride with the 1%ERS' AKA "club racers and aggresively fast riders" in the mountains of North Ga. I loose about 12oz to 16oz of oil in a day. I know engines burn oil, the 9R would loose a little bit, maybe 4 to 6oz. When I say HIGH REVS on the 12R that starts around 4500rpm and would say a lot of 5000rpm to 6200rpm I try not to hit the Rev limiter, but it does happen. I might put about 215 to low 300 miles in a day on an average day in the mountains. 52 miles each way to and from the mountains of normal riding. I have no oil leaks. I ran my 9R like this and didn't seem to us as much. Any racers/ aggresive riders have this problem with going through this much oil? | ||
| M1combat |
That does seem to be quite a bit... You're sure you aren't starting with too much and it's just puking out or something? | ||
| Xb12burner |
What kind of oil are you using? I had this same problem on a previous non-Buell bike. Changed oil and the problem went away permanently. | ||
| Shred |
I check the oil before every mountain ride. Never overfill. I put 29,880 miles on the XB9R. I used Motul V-Twin "Twin-SYN" 20w50 synthetic blend. No problems with engine. I did loose just little bit, when I ran it hard in the high revs. I use the same oil in the 12R, I did do the math on the miles and I'm over do for the oil change. About 800 miles. OOPS!!! | ||
| Truk |
How many miles do you have on the bike? How much oil do you lose when you are not riding aggresively? When you are riding it agresively do you use agresive down shifting to slow you down, or rely more on the brakes? If you are down shifting in high revs, are you bouncing it off the rev limiter when down shifting? | ||
| Shred |
I have just over 8,000. Very little oil loss when riding local. I try to hit the mountains once a week some times twice a week. I down shift and us my brakes. I would say when riding hard a little of both depending on the circumstances. I never hit the rev limiter when down shifting, I'm sure I might come close now and then. | ||
| Jon_s |
I'm using about the same amount of oil (Klotz 20/50) when I flog the bike. The power is good, there is no evidence of oil leaks nor is there any trace of smoke from the pipe. I'm not losing any sleep over it but it is a PITA to carry a bottle of oil in the tank bag. | ||
| Tomd |
Hi, Not sure if I would consider it excessive. The difference in stroke between the 2 engines may account for the difference. With a longer stroke, the piston sweeps a greater surface area, when it does that, it leaves more oil behind to burn off every trip up and down. Another factor to consider is the greater air flow through the crankcase. With the longer stroke, more oil vapor is discharged by the case vent every stroke event. It's common knowledge among hot rodders that bigger engines use more oil than small ones. A 302 ford will use very little oil between changes most of the time about 1/2 quart, a 428CJ will use about 3 quarts in the same period. Both are considered normal consumption. Tom | ||
| Bruceclay |
I too flog my 12R. Either get right up to or bounce the limiter.  I use Red Line 20 50. Never loose any. | ||
| Izzinya |
"we" have been seeing alot of this on sportster and big twins for the last couple of months now for a while "we" were the only dealership to have this problem after 6 top ends in a month . all have been the new improved valve seal style that was started in the buell line with the xb series than it went to sportster now big twins but as far as harley / buell are concerned here is what they have to say August 10, 2005 Diagnosing Oil Consumption There has been a rise in oil consumption complaints on 2005 06 model year vehicles. The intent of this Tech Tip is to help you determine if there is an actual oil consumption issue and more accurately diagnose the root cause. 1. First, determine if there is excessive oil consumption by analyzing the customer complaint and vehicle condition. Many times fuel delivery related issues cause smoking complaints and may even gas wash cylinders leading customers to believe they have an "oil burner" on their hands. Is the vehicle modified and what is its state of tune? Does the EFI calibration match the actual components on the vehicle? Is there fuel stand off in the air cleaner or manifold? 2. What is excessive consumption? Customers may not realize that all engines have some normal rate of oil consumption, and air cooled engines are more prone to use some oil in the course of normal operation. It would not be unusual for a Twin Cam engine to use one quart of oil in 1500 miles or a middleweight powertrain to use one quart of oil in 1000 miles. Oil consumption is impacted by engine condition, mileage, duty cycle (how the vehicle is operated and in what environmental conditions), and accessories. Is the vehicle through its break-in period? Remember rings must seat before they will begin to seal the cylinder to piston clearance. After a discussion with the customer on the complaint and a brief inspection of the vehicle you should be able to determine if you a dealing with a rich condition, oil consumption complaint, or customer misperceptions. 3. Determine the real rate of consumption. To determine the rate of oil consumption bring the oil level to the full line following the "Checking With Warm Engine" procedures outlined in the service manual and tape the filler neck closed. Have the customer ride the vehicle and inspect the level at 500-mile intervals to determine the actual rate of consumption. Be careful not to overfill the tank, as that will provide a false indication of consumption. If the rate of consumption exceeds the norm, you will need to review duty cycle with the customer and then begin your inspection of the engine's state-of-tune accordingly. August 10, 2005 4. Verify the system before you tear it down. Don't overlook the obvious items before disassembly. How are the oil hoses (tight clamps, routings, etc.)? Verify breather operation, this might be a carry-over situation. If you blow lightly into the breather snorkels, there should be some resistance if the umbrella valves are closing properly. Verify oil pressure and oil return functions. You might be dealing with an oiling system issue and/or a wet-sumped lower end. Take a compression reading and perform a leakdown test. Remember to write down the numbers, Technical Service is sure to ask for them. If leak down exceeds 10% determine where it is leaking by. Into the lower end, out the exhaust or intake port, or through a head gasket? 5. Now begin your disassembly based on your findings, and keep both eyes open as you take things apart for clues to the root cause. If the leakage was primarily into the crankcase, then you are chasing a piston to cylinder sealing issues. To rule out a barreled or tapered cylinder re-check leak down in three places (top - middle - bottom) in the stroke once the rocker arm support plate is removed. By the way how did those umbrellas look, and was the rocker box fairly well scavenged? No clogged return passages right? No signs of leakage at the head gasket oil returns? Good gasket surfaces? Check the piston crown for carbon build up. Washed areas on the edges of the piston crown are a good indication of an "oil pumper" (bad rings or piston to cylinder fit). Solid carbon build up across the piston crown generally indicated it is coming from above. With the cylinders off you will be able to more closely examine (and take note of) ring end gap locations. Do they match the service manual recommendations or are they lined up? Also, check the second compression ring, also called the middle or scraper ring, installation. The "dot" should face up, but even more important the outer bevel slants toward the piston and it has a slight chamfer on the ID that goes to the bottom to allow it to function properly. It is rare but sometimes the "dot" is up and ring's taper face is wrong. While you are looking at the rings check their wear patterns. A ring that is over spread or twisted during installation will not seal properly. Leak down past the valves and into the ports requires you inspect them for bad seats and bent stems, or you may find carbon built up to the point they just were not able to seal the combustion chamber. Heavily carboned valves and oil in the intake or exhaust ports (you did remember to take note of that right?) are indications of leaking valve seals. It also pays to look for the unusual, like leakage between the valve guide and the cylinder head. Are the guides loose? Was the head's guide bore scored or damaged during guide installation? This can sometimes be indicated by unusually clean or unusually golden patches in specific spots around the guide. The same is true if there is actual porosity in the head. August 10, 2005 Valve Seal Updates 2005 models and early production 2006 vehicles use a one-piece valve seal and lower spring seat design (p/n 18094-02) that can cause oil leakage between the guide and the seal when side loaded or miss-installed. These can be identified by the silver seal ring and black rubber material. A new version one-piece valve seal and lower spring seat design (p/n 18094-02A) is being implemented into service parts to improve sealing properties and minimize installation issues. The first batch of this new seal can be identified by a green seal ring as shown below. Towards the end of the month 18094-02A seal kits will change to an orange colored rubber material to improve visual identification of the new parts. Twin Cam 88/88B production will be moving to this design in the near future with middle-weight powertrain and service parts to follow shortly thereafter. Please utilize this new design during any future top end services. Warranty and Service Procedures Any individual 18094-02 valve seals in your inventory may be used on Middle-Weight Powertrain repairs. Current engine gasket kits may be used on 2004 - 2006 Sportster and 2003 - 2006 Buell engines. Current gasket kits (top end p/n 17052-99B and engine p/n 17053-99A) may also be used on 2004 and earlier Twin Cam 88/88B engines without any special steps. When using current gasket kits (top end p/n 17052-99B and engine p/n 17053-99A) on 2005 and 2006 Twin Cam 88/88B models discard the 18094-02 valve seals included and use part number 18094-02A in their place, and the included seal protector during installation. For warranty repairs that involve the use of these engine gasket kits (p/n 17052-99B & 17053-99A), you may also claim 1 valve seal kit p/n 18094-02A as part of the repair. These additional parts will only be allowed on MC warranty claims filed against your existing inventory of gasket kits used to repair 2005-2006 Big Twins. Future kits will have the new valve seals included so additional parts should not be listed on warranty claims. Izzinya (Message edited by izzinya on August 19, 2005) | ||
| Pa_xb9sx |
Izzinya - Thanks for that post with the technical information. My XB9SX is "using" oil at a faster rate than I had imagined it would. See the link below for further information. My dealership filled the oil level and they want me to bring it back in 1,000 miles. They do not want me to add any oil during that period so they can see how much it is using. Thanks again. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/131531.html?1124416432 | ||
| Shred |
Thanks for all the info. I'm doing a oil and filter change today, since I'm over do. OOPS. I'm sticking with Motul, I got 30,000 miles of hard riding out of the last XB. | ||
| Jedwele |
Don't forget also that Single crank pin Vtwins build up a lot of crank case pressure expecially at high rpm from 2 big pistons going down at the same time. It will blow some oil in the airbox. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Wow! Is all the Buell technical support so good? I don't think I have ever read any better technical discussion. Comfortable to read without being glib, covers the normal theories as well as the Buell specific stuff, is completely honest about the good and the bad, and is well written to get very good results. I'm impressed! | ||
| Shred |
I did my tune-up as well as the oil/filter change. I'm heading to the mountains on sunday morning for a run. I'll post later on tomorrow night with how much oil loss. I'm hoping only 4 to 6 oz depending on how hard I run it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Just as a data point, I have been tracking my 2005 XB9SX more closely, and it does look like riding it hard consumes a little under 1 quart every 1000 miles. I am currently running Castrol full synthetic 5w50. I know it should be no different then 20w50 in theory, but will switch back to a full synthetic 20w50 and see if that has any effect. I am not going to panic, but like Shred indicated, it is a headache to have to top the oil off again after a 400 mile long ride (at which point it has gone from the top mark towards the bottom mark). | ||
| Eor |
Here's another data point. I've been keeping close track of oil consumption on my XB12X. I attempted to follow the break in procedure in the manual and had the bike serviced at 1000 miles. It is stock. I am using H-D 20W50. As of this writing I have 2570 miles on it. I have added two quarts of oil to it. That is one quart per 1286 miles. Think of it like this and it becomes even more dramatic.... that's one ounce per 40 miles. I went on a 167 mile ride with my wife [on her bike]this afternoon....never exceeded 6O mph with 55 being the max most of the trip. In other words, this engine wasn't anywhere close to being being flogged and the temps were in the high 60's-low 70's. When I returned I had to add 8 ounces of oil to return it to the pre-ride level as checked with the engine hot after the last ride. Someone is going to have to work awfully hard to convince me this is normal oil consumption. |
