| Author | Message | ||||
     M1combat |
Alrighty then... Here are the results... Driving the pipes... When I'm leaving a light at a fairly standard pace with the Force pipe I really feel that there's a large hole in the power below 3K RPM. About the time I fully release the clutch I'm at about 2200-2500. Just as I fully release the lever I get a hole in the power. The best way I can explain it is to people who have fired semi-automatic weapons (especially when they are new to it)... You get a dud or have had someone else place a snap cap somewhere in your magazine and sometimes you anticipate the shot and push the pistol forward just as you expect it to go off... This is the way the Force feels when leaving a light. I've literally leaned forward in anticipation of the acceleration and it surprised me that it didn't "go off"... With the Drummer this just plain doesn't happen (keep in mind I'm still just talking about launch...). I can keep the RPM's at 1500 until I fully let out the clutch and there's no feeling of a lack of power at all (the opposite quite frankly). I can launch and by the time the lever is released it's just plain moving. After launch, once the Force gets to 3K it really comes on... IT's VERY noticeable how the power builds from 2800-3400. From there it's hard to quantify a difference... We're talking a couple/few HP between the two pipes for the rest of the range (more on that later). With the Drummer, it just makes power from Idle all the way up and doesn't have any "peaks" at all. Smooth and VERY driveable at low RPM's at an apex and coming out. Coming out with a Force you can tell that it doesn't deliver power as smoothly. There is a little more once you get past 3K, but it's the delivery around 3K that catches me out with the Force. If I keep it above 3K... More on that later  . Once I'm out with the Drummer and I'm really back to WOT and just looking for the proper entry into the next turn everything just "seems" easier (probably because I haven't just gone through that 3K RPM hit and it's not on my mind or in my suspension). With the Force (after the bottom end), it makes good power until about 4500 or so compared to the Drummer, but then it seems like it starts to wheeze a bit (which for the life of me I can't explain seems how it's basically a damn drag pipe...). There's really no wheezing involved with the Drummer. Once you've used the greater power coming out and you're going through the midrange it feels just like the Force for all intents and purposes but it never starts to wheeze... It just keeps building more power the more you twist it up... very linear (it reminds me of the stock setup, but just a level or two above...). On the freeway... The Force will pull away from the Drummer if you start about 60, but the Drummer will pull away if you start from about 80... IMO it's kind of a wash there... If you're dragging from 60 you should be dropping a gear anyway. Roll-on's aside... The drummer makes it to 130 from about 60 in fifth gear a good deal quicker than the Force (which baffles me because, again, the Force pipe is essentially a drag pipe...). Both certainly get there with authority, but you can feel that the Drummer certainly pulls harder once you hit 100 and beyond. Of note... I was doing the high speed testing on I40 at about 6-7000' elevation (just west of Flagstaff for those of you in AZ). Where DO they work? Well, the launching from a light thing is done pretty regularly on a street bike. This "pretty much" kills the Force for street use. The saving grace of the Force is that I've become addicted to the EXCEEDINGLY INSANE AND WAY TOO LOUD SOUNDS that it makes. I've heard the Drummer, Loud Drummer, D&D, Jardine and the Force. The Force is a LOT louder than any of those. A LOT louder. I can't stress that enough. It's a LOT louder. A LOT. {There... Was that enough stress? It's a LOT louder} That's the only saving grace really... I do indeed like the loudness. My neighbors on the other hand, do not like it. They haven't said anything to me so far, but I'm sure that's only because I putt home and coast everywhere I can in my neighborhood... I know it pisses off dogs from 1/2 mile away. The Drummer sounds nice and deep (you should have heard it in the Dyno room). It's a very nice sound and it's certainly loud, but not earsplittingly loud like the Force. It'll still prompt cagers to roll up their windows if I pass them with the throttle on, but with the Force, I just have to be somewhere near them and they roll their windows up... Even at idle. So basically, the Force doesn't work extremely well on the street unless you're willing to work your clutch to keep a launch above 3K AND you really like it LOUD. The Drummer works off idle, more than respectably enough through the middle, and it's got more on top. If I sit there and imagine myself right next to myself while leaving a light, I'll bet that I could put 6' between me and the Force in that time just after I've fully released the clutch and I'm waiting for the power to come on. The Force then makes a little more power in the middle but I don't think it would catch up by the time I got to the upper end there the Drummer makes more. This is where it get's sticky... I generally switch gears around 5K-5300 when I'm having fun... I don't see any reason to rev the balls off my bike when I have all that power down low anyway (you'll see this in the fact that my Dyno's only go to 6K... I didn't see any reason to bounce it because I don't do that to it anyway...). This drops the revs down to where the Force is making a little more power. It's noticeable while letting out the clutch, but about that time the Drummer takes over again... If I'm just meandering through the twisties, having some fun but not really hauling •••, the Force does offer a few more HP (basically through about 1500 RPM's of the mid-range), but IMO, it's not worth the loss of power below 3K. Anyway... Here's the sheet ... The red is the Force, The green is the Drummer. These lines were made on the same day about an hour apart. As you can see, the ambient temp was about five degrees warmer for the Force runs because it was a little later in the day. Both pipes spent an hour on the dyno. I think their dyno is a bit "sad" so pay no attention to the overall number (I didn't run it to the limiter anyway...). A race kitted 12 was run the same day (just after my bike) and it didn't do quite as well, so I think the dyno is just a little (or a lot) sad. You can see that the Drummer hit 86 at 6150, and the kitted 12 hit 86 at the limiter. I think I'm doin' pretty good with the Drummer  . Don't mind the list of mods... The Dyno tech used my list of mods for the last time I had my bike on his Dyno (which was a few months ago). The mod list is... Chopped up airbox (I only left the filter cover) K&N Filter (not de-oiled or anything stupid like that...) Yanked Snorkel Power Commander Norris Performance Catch Can (Breather tubes re-routed so they don't spew into the filter) Metzeler Sportec M1's. EBC HH pads on the front ZG Double bubble (I'm sure that's worth a couple HP...) CRG "Shorty" gold clutch lever Mobil-1 20W-50 in the cases Mobil-1 75W-90 in the primary Force header for BOTH runs /EDIT - RACE ECM Green = Drummer Muffler Red = Force "Muffler" (It doesn't muffle a DAMN thing...)  (Message edited by m1combat on July 06, 2005) | ||||
| Johnk3 |
Great post. I agree with everything said about the force. It is fun 3000 and up and it does wheeze; feels like it plateaus. It's pulling so hard and you anticipate it, but the pull just levels off. That only happens to me at about 6000. And it is LOUD. I am taking my force off because I can't get enough riding in as I leave the house at 5AM everyday. Maybe I will go with the Drummer or maybe I will get the TiForce. | ||||
| M1combat |
That "failed anticipation" I'm talking about happens at 2500 or so once I let the clutch out fully. I expect more out of it at the bottom (I've been spoiled by the stock exhaust system and the Drummer) so I anticipate getting more and it really doesn't have much at all about there, so I kind of lean forward for the acceleration like I would with the Drummer or stock and it just doesn't happen until I hit 3K, then it turns on. I guess I haven't noticed it at 6000 so much because I rarely rev that high on the street anyway. It does feel like it's starting to wheeze at the top though... | ||||
| Johnk3 |
the drummer has no problem hooking up to the force header? | ||||
| Dj_rider |
i HATE the hole in the throttle response or whatever...its like the bike isnt supposed to run right under 3000 rpm... | ||||
| M1combat |
No problem at all putting the Drummer on the Force header (well, it's a tight fit...). Speaking of a tight fit... The force "muffler" has straight cuts where the clamp goes. The Drummer, being a modified stock can, has those stepped cuts... The Drummer actually seals where the Force has two freakin' holes in it right there... WTF is the deal with that? You can't put the Force on "deep" enough to eliminate the holes... Dumbasses... "i HATE the hole in the throttle response or whatever...its like the bike isnt supposed to run right under 3000 rpm..." But it IS supposed to... And it DOES with the Drummer. | ||||
| Dj_rider |
i have the drummer...the loud one, i think maybe i have an intake leak, my bike runs like crapola under 3k but over 3k it runs like a bat out of hell | ||||
| Norrisperformance |
Are you going to try running the stock header and the Drummer? I know it would be a pain !! But could be worth the effort. Who knows ??? | ||||
| Norrisperformance |
Very nice write up !! Great job !! | ||||
| M1combat |
Yeah, but I have other things to take care of money wise before I can. I traded my stock header for the PCIII so I need to find a good deal on one . | ||||
| Buellj79 |
Nice write up Don! | ||||
| M1combat |
Thanks . | ||||
| Wyckedflesh |
Hey Don, do you think you could find a piper bender who could duplicate the Force header, but in a thicker ID to match the diameter of the stock 12 header? We will chat it up more at Kobie's, hope to see you and Rachel there. And yes that is a VERY sad dyno as I know you were pulling away from me on the top end with the Force pipe against my V&H. I still really want a dyno of the V&H pipe on my 12... | ||||
| M1combat |
I have access to a manual pipe bender but I've been told that the stock header may be the way to go... I don't know anyone with a nice hydraulic bender. As soon as I can I'm going to pick up a stock header and go throw more money at a Dyno... It'll probably be after I sell the TFI (if I sell it)... I still think it'll work half way decent after a majot engine upgrade, but in that case I think a M.S. would do better than either the TFI or a PCIII. After that comes a Penske or Elke damper unit and a set of either Ohlins or re-valved Showa forks (with a few trackdays thrown in here and there...). Maybe a light weight clutch basket/sprocket/pulley combo somewhere down the line... I'm thinking I might try to talk Baker into cutting a taller fifth gear for when I split the case. I'll ask a friend of mine about that bender though... He'd probably at least know a shop that has one. (Message edited by m1combat on July 06, 2005) | ||||
| Blake |
It appears that the A/F ratio was not optimized for the Force setup. Might make a difference if it was. | ||||
| Hogs |
Hey Guys, Well, I know this is abit off topic, However Just thought I wd. throw this in for what its worth..!!! Perhaps the problems if any is with the force header as For me I use the stock 12 header on my 12r and run the Force Can... All I can tell ya is I LOVE this setup Its just LIFTOFF And not to mention the LOUD TOP FUEL SOUND, HAs saved my BEHIND on too many occasions with cagers etc.etc. And the only HOLE I can think off is when I think of my Lovely WIFE ...LoL | ||||
| Jerseyguy |
DJ - My 9 with a Drummer pulls like a tractor at very low RPMs. It will stand up like a trials bike from just off idle. I snapped a peg off last week because it came up too high goofing around, I punked out and tapped the back brake. It came down hard and well, that was that. OCBueller took me for a really great tour of the MD/VA border on the Delmarva Peninsula over the weekend and I showed him how the thing will stand up like a GasGas. The trick is to ride it out a bit so you don't come down too hard. | ||||
| M1combat |
Actually Blake... The shop where I got the tune shoots for 14:1 (you'll notice that's where the Force is at). Kevin Specifically asked for 13:1 with the Drummer. The Drummer made a little more power at ~13.7:1 but I went with what Kevin asked for. I told the Dyno tech to just go for maximum power with the Force because I hadn't been asked to tune it to a certain AFR. That's what he did. We couldn't get any more power from the Force pipe, we could get just a HAIR more from the Drummer. It doesn't matter though... The loss of power at 2K-3K kills the Force pipe for a street application. It could have another five horses at the top and it would still •••• me off at the bottom... We tried the Force with a little more fuel and we lost power (especially at 2500... DRASTIC changes there for small fuel delivery changes). The PCIII makes that easy... Once you get the curve at 100% throttle worked out, you can just select the entire colum and remove or add fuel. Pretty neat if you ask me. When going through 14:1 towards 13:1 we hit an area where the Drummer dropped off just a teency bit... The Dyno guy looked at me and asked if I was sure I wanted to go to 13:1. I thought about it and decided I should because Kevin asked me to. So uhhh... What's not optimized with the Force run? It's at 14:1, that's where it was making it's power at (which I can tell you because I was standing in the frickin' dyno room...). One thing to note... I do have the Baffle for the Force pipe. It doesn't really help the dip at 2500 at all, it seems to remove some power from the top anddoesn't seem to do anything in the middle. That's just on the SOTP dyno though, so take it with a grain... | ||||
| M1combat |
These are the maps we came up with... The mod list is in the first post...
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| Spatten1 |
Great write up. I also believe that the Drummer has very consistent torque delivery at lower RPMs, just as the chart indicates. I don't feel a real "hit" or surge as the higher horsepower comes on with RPMs. Drivablity is excellent. | ||||
| Norrisperformance |
Just my two cents, but I think the stock header is going to make a big improvement. Different bike, elevation, day, dyno. but here's my dyno. Max power 92.57 Max torque 80.92 Dyno was run at Ray Price Harley. XB12R Loud Drummer, TFI, race ecm, stock header.  | ||||
| Craigster |
M1, Were you dyno testing these pipes on your 12 or are these from a XB9? | ||||
| Phantom5oh |
What's the power difference between the Drummer and the Loud Drummer? | ||||
| M1combat |
It's from a 12. There was a dyno run of a race kitted bike that made 86HP at 6800 RPM on that dyno. I think if you look at the curves of mine and you'll see that the Drummer curve would have ended up at about 90 (we actually did bounce it once and it hit 89 but that was before we had the midrange sorted out and I didn't want to bounce it again). It's my opinion that this Dyno is very sad and I was at 7000' elevation. I can make all the excuses I want about the number, but I don't care about the number (which is half of the reason I didn't take it to the limiter...). Look at the curves. You may not think that there's a "lot" of difference, but I assure you... The bike is completely transformed with a pipe change between the Drummer and the Force. The Drummer is infinitely more driveable and useful on the street... particularly in town. It's not too bad when you get out and stretch it's legs, but every time I settle down a little and cruise to the next section of twisties I typically run about 2-3K RPM (which is where I cruise around town at as well). The lack of power there is quite irritating. Put it in perspective... There's ~30% less power at 2500... You might think "But it really comes on at 3K...". Yeah, it does, but it takes forever to get there. Maybe I should just drop a gear or two? No. That's not why I bought a Buell. If I decided to do a roll on against some other bike I would, sure... But then I'd be up in the R's where the Drummer makes more again. | ||||
| Craigster |
7000 ft?!? I thought the CF I saw on the sheet was a mistake... 1.32.....You have a 32% correction factor. SAE does not like to accept more than 7% because by their own admission the error in the correction factor increases as the CF increases. I wouldn't worry about the numbers at all then. Here's why: The math for the SAE (and others) correction factor is linear. Picture a bike at sea level making 130 HP. Just for shites and grins assume a CF of 1.0 (77deg F, 29.23 Hg and 1% RF) now take it up to where you tested. Let’s assume it really lost 30% of its power. You'd be running on only 91-hp actual uncorrected power. Remember now: The CF does not care if it rises or falls, the % change is the same - so when it deviates, it now multiplies your 91 hp actually measured at the wheel by 30%. Result a blistering 118.3 hp. That's not even close to the 130 hp you had a sea level. If you're dealing with adjustments of 5% the error is so small as to insignificant. 130 - 5% drop =123.5 hp apply the 5% CF and you get 129.675 hp, no big deal. Hence the artificial 7% limit the SAE likes to use as a cap on CFs. You were really making something like 62.88 hp at the wheel (62.88 *1.32 = 83). We know that this is wrong so if we tinker with the numbers a little and say (X hp * 0.68 = 62.88) you would probably be closer to making 92.5 hp at sea level. Admittedly that math is not exactly correct either, but it's closer than the standard method. Anyway, just couldn’t resist trying to figure this out…….I’m a dyno enthusiast at heart. | ||||
| M1combat |
I hear you . I would like to tune in Phoenix (I think about 8-1200') but the guys down there seem to like to get $189/tune and I needed to do two in the same day... That's why I mentioned it in the first post and part of the reason why I felt comfortable not even running it to the limiter because I knew the correction factor was a bit wonky at best... I haven't run with TOO many twelves, but even before I tuned it I could pull away from any of them that I ran with (and I weigh 225Lbs in my gear)... Not that I was RUNNING away from them really, but certainly meandering away , and they weren't stock 12's either. After the tune I would guess that I picked up about roughly 4 HP across the board. A noticeable ammount anyway and I picked up a LOT at 2500 with the Force. Before I tuned the Force I could literally go WOT at 2500 and I'd LOSE speed in 3rd, 4th and 5th... I had to gently work it up to 3K. Now, I can go WOT at 2500 and I just have to wait a while before it hits 3K. With the Drummer I roll on at 2500 and stuff starts to happen immediately... (Message edited by m1combat on July 07, 2005) | ||||
| Opto |
M1, Are you using the original Drummer or the latest XB12-specific Drummer? Good write-up, thanks. | ||||
| M1combat |
I'm pretty sure it's the latest XB12 "loud" Drummer. Keep in mind that I'm using the Force header, but the Force header was used for both pipes on that chart. | ||||
| Kds1 |
Opto, It's the new loud 12 Drummer....different in design than what you have....I can fix you up if need be.... Kevin www.kdfab.com | ||||
| Wyckedflesh |
Don, call Custom Performance. They generally advertise $75 an hour for Dyno tuning. |
PCIII w/ O2