| Author | Message | ||
     José_Quiñones |
Ok lets start with what Buell will be compared with if they decide to stay in the Sport Touring Game  145 hp, Shaft Drive, Fuel Injected $11,499!!!!!!! More info here | ||
| Bullitt |
I thought most considered the Honda VFR / Interceptor to be the gold standard for sport-touring. With the Honda sporting just under 100 HP and less than 55 lb/ft, an XB (12T?  ) would compare quite favorably in a more touring oriented guise, wouldn't it? For me, the FJR, and new Kawasaki ZZ-R occupy a different spot in the motorcycle landscape. Hyper-sport touring? They definetely have the power but how can something that large and heavy really handle well? I guess it's in perpesctive - i.e. does the sport in sport touring really equal power, or handling (think Duc ST4), or a good balance of both? Hey! Wait a minute! I just described my old M2! | ||
| Henrik |
I guess I'm leaning more towards "sport" in sport touring. The FJR 1300 looks to be an awesome bike to compete with the Honda ST1100 and the BMW K1200. I'd be looking for something a bit lighter and quicker handling though. Motor: enough power to pull the bike loaded, riding 2-up. On the S3 I did fine with 'round 85 HP, 70 ft. lbs. of torque. I wouldn't mind a bit more power though - like Kevin's Nallinized motor  Smoothness and reliability is key. Also, please make it possible to check and add motor oil without having to remove rear seat and luggage - and it'd be nice to have the primary drain more accessible as well. As for the type of motor - as long as it's low maintenance I don't care. The old sporty mill in it's newer configuration could be just fine. Please keep the belt drive. Suspension: fully adjustable, designed and set up for the kind of riding you'd expect on this bike - with load and passenger. None of the low GVWR BS we ran into with the S3. Easy preload adjustments both front and rear would be key. Ergonomics: It would be great if the bike was set up so that you could easily change your riding position from tour to sport. The bars could be clip-ons with an extension system similar to the Two Brothers clip-ons - or it could be regular clip-ons with 2-piece brackets and enough upper fork tube above the top tripple to have the clip-ons either above or below. It would also be good to have bars fully adjustable for angle/droop/rotation. The pegs could be mounted on eccentric mounts, so that you could loosen a bolt, pivot the mount and raise/lower the pegs - or even a simple "flip the bracket" arrangement like the S2T. Reach adjustable front brake and clutch levers are a must. As are ergonomically shaped gel grips. Of course the seat is a question of taste - but gel/Propad would be a nice option. Also, how about a separate pillion seat with a luggage rack option to replace the pillion seat when you're riding solo. I know it's not high priority, but a passenger backrest option would be nice too. Electrical: the charging system output must be high enough to power the stock heated grips, heated clothing, accessory lighting etc. The headlight should be as high output as allowed, and please make changing the headlight bulb an easy roadside job - not a 30 min. "remove the fairing job". Have connections ready up front for the factory offered, fork mounted accessory lights (PIAA). The bike should have a couple of accesory power outlets stock - at least one for the driver and one on the instrument panel. Accessories should run off of their own fuse(s). Instruments: Analog tach and speedo, clock, accurate trip and odometer, engine temp gauge, air temp gauge, standard "idiot" lights. Of course if the industry get those tire pressure monitors ready, that would be a nice safety feature. Wind Protection: I prefer the half-faired look of the S2/S3. The fairing lowers didn't do much for me. If Buell choose to offer them - please make sure they don't crack (sorry, couldn't resist) Luggage: integrated into the design of the bike, with quick open lever, quick detach lever on the outside of the bag (to make it possible to remove the bag from the bike without emptying it first), foldable handle, waterproof, bag liners, deep and narrow lids, attachment loops for bungee cords (to strap tent/mattress/fishing rod on top of bags). Optional bag for the "luggage rack" pillion seat - soft but waterproof. Other Stuff: A quick detachable centerstand is a good idea for a bike meant for longer distances. Helps with lots of maintenance and repair chores. Don't want to ride around with it when not touring - hence the quick detach. Mirrors that show more than your elbows. Enough for now Henrik | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Henrik, Very nice, you put a lot of thought into it! I think Buell should continue to target their new sport tourer like the current S3: a light weight/simple maintenance AMERICAN torque monster option aimed at the backroads/twisties crowd, not the interstate drones. Their current ad for the S3 hits that target dead on: You know those really thick, straight lines on the road map? Avoid 'em The FJR, Honda ST1100, BMW's and Concours are interstate drones to me. The Sprint ST, Duc ST2/4, VFR and Futura are more in the S3's current ballpark. IMO the Futura is a belt drive away from being close to the perfect sport tourer. The FJR is powerful and cheap, but it is HUGE (32.2 inch seat height, 60" wheelbase, 540 lb dry weight). I probably will not be able to put my feet down on this thing! I'll use your excellent format and add my thoughts: Motor: I always thought that it was a mistake to sell the S3T engine with S1/X1 cams in it. You need LOW/MIDRANGE power when you're loaded with stuff an a passenger. You don't want to be having to spin the engine above 5000 rpm all the time to keep it in the powerband. That's why I put M2 cams on mine and kept the stock exhaust. With XB engine you get the benefits of very low maintenance requirements (no valves to adjust), good gas mileage and good low end AMERICAN torque. What they need is to put an automatic primary chain tensioner and it will be even better. But it's cranky and noisy, and of course, it needs MORE POWER! They can do it three ways: A) keep the stroke (to keep the vibrations low, so saddlebags,fairing lowers, etc don't CRACK), but punch it out to 3.75 inch pistons, giving you 1130 cc's (just like the Revolution's displacement!). If the XB puts out 94 hp/cc, then this one should be good for 106 hp at the crank, or 90 at the wheel. B) Increase the stroke a bit to 3.5 inches, use 3.75 inch pistons and you get 1266 cc's with about 118 hp crank/101 hp at the wheel. Piston speed at this stroke at 7500 rpm is still below 4500 ft/min, so the stock XB valvetrain should do ok. This will vibrate more than option A, but less than our current paint shakers, so it will probably do good with the saddlebags and stuff. Whichever option they use, put "midrange" cams in it please! C) Stick the REVO engine in there! Benefits: POWER, smoothness, refinement. Drawbacks: Radiator and where to put it, valve adjustments at 10,000 miles, crappy gas mileage. Two last things, a 6th GEAR, please and enough fuel to get 200 miles between tanks. Suspension:You nailed it. Ergonomics:You nailed it, just be careful that all this stuff doesn't add too much weight. Electrical: Nailed that too. Instruments: Add an oil temperature gauge and a fuel gauge too, and maybe some DDFI information so the bike will be easier to diagnose without a scannalizer. Wind Protection: Adjustable windshield, just because it's fun to play with. Luggage: Nailed it again!!!!!! Other Stuff: the turn signals should be integrated into the back of the mirrors, and placed in the tail section to the sides of the stop light so they don't intrude into the saddlebag space. Keep the wheelbase around 55 inches, the seat height BELOW 31 inches, the dry weight below 500 lbs and you have a winner! Assuming the MSRP is below $12,000............ | ||
| Shot_Gun |
I think I bought my S2 for all those reasons. Unique styling, Charachter! and class. Four days out of the week you might toolin around, and acouple days pushin the tires to the limit and then taking a tour for a week. We need something that can do it all! You guys are definetly hitting the mark. | ||
| Jima4media |
The FJR is a sweet sport touring bike. Yamaha R1 in sheep's clothing. I don't like the 4-banger motor though. What would I want in a Buell sport touring bike? Bigger gas tank. 5-6 gallons. Comfortable seat. Cross-linked ABS brakes - ala Honda VFR Interceptor. Adjustable handlebars. Move them up and back for long rides, forward and down for the twisties. I prefer soft bags myself, easy to remove, and they protect the bike, and they are less costly to replace in the event of a tip-over. Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Jima4media |
I had a dream the other night, maybe some motor engineers could tell me if it is doeable or not. Once you are up to speed on your sport-tourer, flip a switch, and your ECM turns off the rear cylinder - gas and spark. Then you are getting great gas mileage for long droning trips on the interstate, and you don't need as big of gas tank. Flip the switch again, and you have a hot-rod. Can you run a V-Twin on one cylinder? | ||
| Dynarider |
Jim, it can be done but it sucks. Cadillac did it years back with the V-8, they had it so it would run on 4 or 6 cylinders to conserve fuel. The things sucked big time, always breaking & really never delivered what they claimed they would. | ||
| Johnc |
When I first saw articles about the Suzuki V-Strom, I thought they had a competitive answer for the Buell S3. They should have built it with 17 inch sport bike wheels, a seat height under 31 inches, and the 125 rear wheel hp of the TL1000R. They got the ergos and wind protection right but it's too heavy, tall and long. That's what I'd like Buell to aim for. I love my M2's handling and ergos but it would be nice to have more power and decent wind protection. | ||
| X1glider |
Running on cylinder can be done. Look at Honda's VTEC engine. It holds valves closed so it can act like a 2 valve/cyl engine. If Buell, came up with a similar setup, it can hold the valves open and turn off the FI. But because of the lack of combustion in one cylinder, the engine would probably rattle your fillings loose. You would need an inherently balanced design to start with. I think it's Chevy, that is going to do this with their V-8s too. Anyone heard of this? | ||
| Blake |
Shutting a cylinder down for the sake of economy on a Buell would not prudent. You are still pushing all the reciprocating inertia, still have cylinder to ring friction, still have to pump cylinder contents (whatever they may be, vaccum or air). Nah, take your 50+ mpg and grin. Adding some kind of system to remove a cylinder from operation would likely add a ton of complexity and significant weight while not appreciably (if at all) improving the fuel efficiency. | ||
| X1glider |
The VTEC system IS complex and Honda has been having it's share of problems with it. Something else I didn't think of, you'd also lose the lubrication qualities of fuel in the dead cyclinder. | ||
| Blake |
Gasoline is a very poor lubricant. You must be thinking two stroke and/or diesel? | ||
| Rashomon |
Cylinder shut-down is coming back to GM, and is already used by Mercedes on their V-12 and some V-8 engines. It's not necessarily complex, and is immensely easier when you have injection and separate runners to each cylinder -- which Buell engines do not now have. Typically, with some sort of VTEC-type device, the valve mechanism is shut-off to the non-running cylinder, as is injection. Yes, energy is required to compress the gas in the cylinder on the compression stroke, but it's essentially returned on the expansion stoke -- the only two strokes that exist for the non-running cylinders. The latest systems will cycle the cylinders shut down to keep temperatures up and eliminate hydrocarbon blips when the cylinder is restarted "cold." They are a far cry from the Eaton-supplied system used on the Cadillac V-8-6-4, largely through more thorough engineering and the increase in ECU comptuter power. For the fuel economy benefit, they are not particularly expensive, and there is little reason to believe that they need to be unreliable, particularly as the car companies have to guarantee emissions over 100,000 miles. The reason this improves fuel economy is that the cylinders left running are running at a greater load than usual, and thus on a much more efficient part of the engine's specific fuel consumption map. It's exactly the same reason that even very "mild" hybrids get superior fuel economy. Unlike a Mercedes V-12, on a Twin there would be a very noticable change in engine feel with such a system, with a much more distinct power pulse. It might not be a great idea on a Buell unless gas gets a lot more expensive, or unless Erik doesn't find some way to expand the fuel cell in the XB-style frame. | ||
| X1glider |
Gasoline has some lubricious qualities, and it cools to some degree too, which is why we still use it as opposed to LNG or CNG. LNG and CNG are so dry, that the cylinders get far too hot. An air cooled engine couldn't survive that. Rashomon: Much better explained and excellent point about "the cylinders left running are running at a greater load than usual, and thus on a much more efficient part of the engine's specific fuel consumption map." Very true, an IC engine is most efficient at WOT and max load. If gas gets that expensive we'll all probably be riding Blasts! | ||
| Firemanjim |
Honda VTEC system only works valve train,changing cam timing and 4 to 2 valve--does not shut down cylinder firing. | ||
| X1glider |
Shutting the cylinder down to make the Buell a 1 cyclinder engine is what we were getting at. Yeah the VTEC tries to get more low and mid range power by operating on 2 valves, then 4 to get the top end. I didn't realize they adjusted cam timing too. Must have some kind of mechanical advance/retard setup. Either way, the Buell would have to be an inline engine. The current flywheel is balanced for 2 operating cylinders, going to one would rattle the bike apart. | ||
| Aaron |
Seems like you'd be better off to just start dropping out every other firing on each cylinder (with corresponding valve inactivity). In other words, keep hitting both cylinders, just make it into an 8 stroke instead of a 4 stroke. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Actually Aaron, from what I've read, I think that is what some of the experimental mercedes (and other) systems are doing. It's just easier to say it's not firing on all 8 or 12 cyls. than try to explain doubling the cycle (for the layman)...same net effect (for any given 4 revolutions, only half of the cyls are actually producing energy/hp). Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Rashomon |
"Honda VTEC system only works valve train,changing cam timing and 4 to 2 valve--does not shut down cylinder firing." Firemanjim -- I was simply assuming a similar mechanism as used by VTEC to disconnect the cam lobe from a rocker arm or lifter, but in this case not connecting it to a second one. Honda uses different designs for this with different engines, and VTEC itself is used to described almost totally disparate systems -- such as the used on the Acura Integras and the one used on the new VFR800i. The former switches between two different cam lobes and profiles depending upon engine speed; the latter shuts down two valves of a four-valve engine at low speed. The point is, however, that there are many different, tested, available ways to shut down valve actuation to shut down cylinder firing. "Either way, the Buell would have to be an inline engine. The current flywheel is balanced for 2 operating cylinders, going to one would rattle the bike apart" X1Glider: as the pistons continue to reciprocate normally, the balance factor doesn't change. However, the torque impulse from firing a single cylinder instead of two is doubled, and the frequency halved. You would certainly feel the difference, but even with a V-Twin, it wouldn't shake the bike apart. | ||
| Blake |
X1G, Cylinder walls are coated with engine oil. At normal operating temperatures the fuel vaporizes pretty much as soon as it enters the combustion chamber; there is no fuel on the cylinder walls. Okay acronym boy, what are are LNG and CNG? If reciprocating mass doesn't change, balance should be fine right? | ||
| X1glider |
Dammit!(  with myself) I need to get some sleep, I'm slipping! It really makes a big difference in 2 stroke diesels. I still think I'm in Detroit 71 series world sometimes. Duh! The oil that's on the cylinder walls is underneath the rings. But, what about above the rings? If the fuel didn't lubricate to some extent, no matter how minimal, the top ring would scar the cylinder on every upstroke, especially where the ring gap is. I'm with you that this isn't the fuels' main purpose, but it really does act as a lubricant in this way. Vapor lube!  LNG and CNG? Liquid and compressed natural gas. The difference? Maybe one isn't compressed enough to be liquid, not really sure. | ||
| Blake |
Had some garbonzo beans for dinner. Got some CNG brewing. Oil coats entire cylinder wall. Rings ride on a film of oil that gets dispersed by wiping action. At 6800 rpm (over 226 strokes per second), without a strong lubricating oil film, the rings would soon melt. Fuel really plays no part in lubricating a gasoline engine's cylinder wall. | ||
| Rashomon |
"Fuel really plays no part in lubricating a gasoline engine's cylinder wall" Indeed, gasoline can be quite destructive if the engine is running rich by cutting the oil film; fuel-injected engines with their more precise cold start metering tend to have less cylinder wear than do carbureted engines starting on choke. But on topic: the biggest thing I would like for a Buell sports-tourer is to keep the weight down; there's no reason for it to gain much more than 50 pounds over a Firebolt. Also, for technical eyecandy: I want a moving map GPS on the dash, with every minor twisty road in the country on it, including the ones that only show up on county, rather than state, maps. I'd spend a pound on that, though it might need to be made optional from a pricing stand point. | ||
| Libnosis |
Rashomon I like that idea (alot) for any bike, not just touring. Only problem, it's akin to having the tv visible to the driver (in a car or rv). We just won't tell the DOT. How about replacing the speedo with a gps screen. Speedo? We don't need no stinking speedo. We got tachs! lib | ||
| Mikej |
Lib, Actually, active gps display screens are available for current production passenger cars, approved for road use by the driver. And with that the roads just became a little more dangerous for other drivers, pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorcyclists. | ||
| Henrik |
XB12ST back on topic: Motor: Don't know that I'd need fuel economy gadgetry - keep it simple. These bikes get pretty decent gas milage as it is. I like your motor option B) Josè - and I'd prefer the torqey cams as well. Automatic primary chain tensioner would be great if possible. I guess it could be done similar to teh cam chain tensioner on the SV, which has a rachet mechanism that gives itself another notch as the chain stretches. Just make sure the teeth on the rachet mechanism are fine enough - on the SV you get quite a bit of vibration off the cam chain, because the tensioner needs too slack a chain to "rachet". Milage: good point about the fuel capacity. 200 - 250 mile range in stock configuration would be nice. Enough that we'd stay in the 200 mile range with a modified motor ... 'cause you know it's gonna happen. Weight: Right on Rashomon - let's keep the weight down - so you can dump the luggage at the "base camp" and go have some real fun Bike Geometry: maintain super sharp handling. When you do longer distances the extra weight and often rearward weight bias (fully loaded) should add enough rake to give plenty of stability. Henrik Okay acronym boy, what are are LNG and CNG? They're TLA's, Blake | ||
| X1glider |
Henrik: TLA? GPS topic. Why not have a "heads-up" GPS projected on the inside of our face shields? Then we can not pay attention to where we're going just like the cagers. Why should they have all the fun?  | ||
| Henrik |
TLA: Three Letter Acronym A good friend of mine is a consultant, and apparently TLA-speak is so popular in that field that they made up an acronym for it Henrik | ||
| José_Quiñones |
They should bring back the flipup passenger backrest/storage bin like the old RS1200 had. |
