G oog le BadWeB | Login/out | Topics | Search | Custodians | Register | Edit Profile


Buell Motorcycle Forum » XBoard » Buell XBoard Archives » Archive through May 25, 2005 » Another TFI thread « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through May 15, 2005Hogs30 05-15-05  08:18 pm
         

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lpd22
Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Typeone- What type of gas mileage are you getting?

Currently with 3:30, 7, 4, 8:15, I am getting around 78 mpg for one tank full. My old settings(which I cannot remember) I averaged around 54mpg. I usually ride pretty hard. Always flogging it every chance i get.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Typeone
Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 11:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Lpd, not sure right now, i'll be out for a journey tomorrow so i'll calculate where i'm at and let you know.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ingemar
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 05:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sweet,

I had all the problems you mentioned and they were discussed in several different threads here on the board.

The idle hanging at ~2200rpm could be because the idle is set a tad too high. I wouldn't think that it is TFI related.

I found out that the surge at 3500rpm when cruising was because it was rich. This wasn't solved by the yellow pot alone, but in combination with the red and maybe backing the 4th pot back to default.

I had the rough running too but in a different rpm range. I still have it a bit around 3000-3500. I noticed that it gets worse when I back off the throttle 1 or 2 millimeters in an attempt to keep the speed constant. The moment I accellerate even the slightest bit its gone. I suspect this too is a matter of running a tad too rich. It's also when the load on the engine is minimal and the throttle is hardly open.

The settings I gave you aren't the settings I'm using, it's what I believe is a good starting point for solving your problems, but your bike HAS to run smoothly before you reinstall the TFI. Otherwise you can't troubleshoot effectively.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Skully
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Johnk3- Where did you get a Power Commander for $89?

Charlieboy6649- "They said that the PCIII won't work with the XB's because the map is adjusted through the O2 and Temp sensors, not just the O2."

Wonder what they did on the earlier Buells?

Keith
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cruisin
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Mike, I'm assuming you're referring to the O2 gauge we both picked up. I did put it on but just have not had any time to tinker with the settings on the TFI. I'm dying to spend a couple hours riding and tweaking...hopefully this weekend.

(Message edited by CruiSin on May 16, 2005)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rosko
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 05:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

who's running a PCIII on a XB?..any problems?...(got one in transit right now for the wife's XB)...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Johnk3
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

got my pc 3 on ebay. actually got two. one was 89 and the other was 230...

I rode today for 70 miles and the bike ran perfect. much better than with the tfi.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Firewhirl
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"theres a 4 wire o2 sensor on ebay right now - cheap!"

Just because it's a 4-wire does not mean it's the correct sensor. Is the one on E-Bay a narrow band or wide band sensor?

The TFI reminds me of how we modify our Corvette computers after mods. You can mail in your computer and have it re-programmed with known settings/maps that have worked with the same mods you have. That's just a basic starting point just to get the corvette running. Some people have luck with the program as is; others can barely get the engines to run correctly. Ultimately you should visit a dyno to have it fine tuned. So basically to me the TFI is just good enough to get the bike running good, although on some bikes the TFI settings are not good enough. I'm sure you can get a custom map loaded on the TFI even though it is meant to be used as is by the buyer. You change the maps by using the buttons. The PCIII is design with fine tuning in mind. The only way to truly have a fine tuned map is to run the bike on a dyno. After the run the PCIII map is modified by the dyno operator after reviewing the logged data.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Charlieboy6649
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 01:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Norris - I'm not sure which sensor, whether it's the air temp sensor on the intake, or the actual engine temp sensor in the head. If it is the intake air sensor, that would make sense cuz the fuel map would be altered for cooler (More dense) or hotter (less dense air).

Skully- This FI system is different than the earlier systems apparently. (Again, according to my phonecon with Dyno jet)

All- After consulting my local dyno tuner, we're going to go for it with the X-1 PC. We're just going to be sure the engine is good and hot when we tune so that the settings will be relevant to hard riding...

(Message edited by charlieboy6649 on May 17, 2005)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Buellman39
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 01:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thats fine and dandy, but what happens when its 30 degs out and you want to ride?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ingemar
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

he PCIII is design with fine tuning in mind. The only way to truly have a fine tuned map is to run the bike on a dyno.

The TFI is no different. The rest is just lucky or less picky, that's all.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Firewhirl
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 08:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"The TFI is no different. The rest is just lucky or less picky, that's all."

Ingemar,
Is the TFI able to have maps downloaded into it by the user or shop?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jerseyguy
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Fire - No.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ingemar
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 09:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Wow...oke, its not a map. You dial it in. Comes down to the same thing if you ask me.

Instead of downloading someone else's map you dial in your TFI pots equal to someone else's settings.

What happens is that you change fuel delivery, wether by a map or turning knobs. Point is that for both the TFI and the PCIII you need luck to have success with someone else's map or pot settings. To get it to run succesfully both need to get it tuned in on a dyno.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Buellman39
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 09:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

It still comes down to tuning thing, no matter what!!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

M1combat
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You HAVE to tune a TFI. The final settings will be dependent on the AFV. Because of this, anyone that has a different AFV will end up with different final settings on the TFI.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Buellman39
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

M1, isn't your A/F constantly changing?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ingemar
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yes, the AFV is constantly changing. This is mainly (but not limited to) the o2 sensor giving out different voltages as the level of oxygen changes in the exhaust.

The way I understand things with the TFI is it reads the O2 sensor voltage and changes it to a voltage level so that the ECM stops trying to adjust for the rich mixture.

If the ECM would be changing the AFV according to the O2 sensor readings with the TFI installed, it should continually try and lean out the mixture as a properly tuned TFI is adding fuel, enrichening the mixture for a 13.x:1.

So its my understanding that the TFI disables the adaptive feature of the ECM.

This all just speculation though, I don't know for sure.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hogs
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ingemar, Great So in saying that ... Does it not sum it up as to what the TFI does or are there any other possibites,what about cruise mode does when one ride for the 10-15 mins at 3500 + does the TFI changed (afv) that or ??? Wondering....
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Johnk3
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Doesn't the TFI just add fuel?
Doesn't the PC3 have the ability to subtract fuel to the mixture?
The PC3 with 4 wire o2 sensor appears to have the ability to richen the mixture based on the o2 sensor only and to add/subtract fuel based upon the settings you plug in.

What good is the TFI if I am running rich?

The TFI may work for you but it doesn't work for me.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Firewhirl
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 02:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"It still comes down to tuning thing, no matter what!!"

Sure does, both pciii and tfi will do it. But the pciii will allow a finer tuning from what I am reading. It may or may not make a difference on a certain bike. The pciii also has buttons for tuning. The buttons make a 2%-4% change depending on which pc you have. The TFI is also operating the same way, the buttons make a percentage change. But again with the pciii you build your custom map made specifically for your bike. Then you can use the buttons if you ever need to. I would really like to see a comparison between the two. Install some mods, install the TFI, run bike on dyno. Switch out the TFI for the PCIII, run on dyno and then compare the results. Dyno runs will vary very slightly due to many variables but it should be a good enough comparison. Has anyone one ever done this? Who here has first hand experience running both?

(Message edited by firewhirl on May 18, 2005)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Buellman39
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Good point hogs, When I changed pot 4 to 8 mine stopped surging
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ingemar
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

What good is the TFI if I am running rich?

None. But why are you running rich? Certainly not with a stock ecm and otherwise racekitted XB would you?

The TFI is made for the stock ecm. Show me a dyno sheet with A/F ratio that clearly shows that its running TOO rich in a certain area.

Remember that someone who's keeping his bike bone stock has no use for a TFI. Those who use/want/need a TFI are those who are running at least an aftermarket pipe and K&N (and mostly desnorkled and modded airbox too). In that situation I am pretty sure a stock ecm will not have you running TOO rich. At WOT maybe rich, but not too rich.

I think it was that group of people in mind when they developed the TFI. For that group, the need to remove fuel was unnessecary. Besides, it was a great security feature because you couldn't lean out the mixture to the point that you would burn a hole in a piston.

Me, I would have rather seen that they made 3 o'clock equal to zero. 1 and 2 o'clock would remove a little fuel from the mixture. But they didn't. The TFI is still a great and user friendly add-on to manually control fuel delivery. Much easier than any other device out there.

At least, that's my 2 cents on the matter.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Briz31
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The TFI does work well, IF you have it setup correctly.
Sure it takes a little time in getting the correct settings, I know as it's taken me about 3 months with minimal variations to get it right.

Many problems and issues we face is the various temperatures of the bike in operating conditions.
1. A cold bike handles like a real dog.
2. When it's all fully warmed up it pulls like a school boy. (so to speak)

From all this we can assume that it's not only the O2 sensor but also the Temp sensors that effect the fuel delivery..
This is also why Power Commander discontinued the unit for the XB, the varying sensors.
As you would need multiple maps for the various temperature ranges.

Lets face it, we set these things up for operating conditions, so when it's cold expect a little hesitation and stumbles over the RMP range..

Well, that's my 2c...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Trac95ker
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 12:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I have the TFI, Quiet Drummer, K&N, and desnorkeled. My settings are 4, 7, 4 1/2, 8 1/4. I tunned it using a Sunpro A/F ratio gauge. It really made tunning easy! The O2 voltage values for the LEDs on the gauge are: .1v= 1st led on left (lean, red) 1.0 v=10th and last led on right (rich, green).

The bike runs very well. I'm going to a free night to verify the results. I'll post the my findings later.

During my tuning, the O2 sensor went bad and the bike ran like crap. That was at 1200 miles. Someone on the board mentioned the TPS not being reset could have ruined the O2 sensor. I believe thats what happened. I changed the sensor and had it reset. The bike runs well. It pops a little thru the exhaust but not excessively.

I'm happy with how easy the TFI was to tune with the A/F gauge. Hopefully the dyno will back that up.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ingemar
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 01:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Briz, I agree. The lambda doesn't work when its cold. It needs to heat up before it does anything. I believe the ecm runs in open loop until it comes up to operating temperature.

Tracker, I would be very interested in the results. Please keep us posted. Have you modded your airbox in any way or is that still stock.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jerseyguy
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 08:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I have proven (to myself) that the RACE ECM runs slightly rich to quite rich depending on %throttle opening throughout almost all of the RPM range. Therefore, I removed the TFI from my bike. 9, Drummer, open airbox, race ECM.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Opto
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 05:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ingemar, I wish the ecm would run open loop until the engine reaches operating temp, from what I can see it takes about 30 secs from a cold start at 20 degrees C to go closed loop, and from then on it runs with hesitations until fully warm. If the Buell engineers let the ecm run open loop for about 5 mins it would have been a really nice thing. I really miss a manual choke : )
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jerseyguy
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 09:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Opto - Interesting that you mention that. The only noticeable problem I've ever had with fuel delivery is a single cough out of the intake about 30 seconds out of my driveway and only on a cold (40F, 4C) morning. Its just happened a few times but always at the same spot on my road. I think you just solved the mystery.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ingemar
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 09:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Opto, Never thought of it that way, but it makes more sense than what I was thinking.

If I may ask, how are you so sure it switches to closed loop after 30 secs?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Opto
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 05:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I can't be that sure, but there comes a point where the O2 voltage goes from very steady to oscillating, and at this point the idle becomes less stable. Listen to your bike carefully from a stone cold start, and see if you can detect a point where the idle suddenly becomes slightly less stable, not as smooth. My bike does it every time. If you have an O2 voltage indicator it will show on that too.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

M1combat
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 07:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"So its my understanding that the TFI disables the adaptive feature of the ECM. "

Not exactly... It just attenuates the signal is all. If the atmospheric conditions change, the O2 will still adjust the map, and the TFI will still add the same percentage of fuel that it was. The ability for the ECM to learn is NOT disabled.

In my case, I run a Force exhaust on a 12. It's VERY rich at 2500 (like 10:1 or worse) and a little rich from 5500-6000. Between 3K and 5500... Pretty much right on. The TFI is useless to me. I have a PCIII that I'll be installing shortly and then getting it tuned.

Right now my settings on the TFI are Off, Off, Off and 8:15. The TFI was a gamble that didn't pay off so good for me...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ingemar
Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 09:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Opto - I'll have to try that.

M1, That is with race ecm, right? I wish the techlusion would read out the AFV.

It's probly been asked before, but why did you set #4 at 8:15?
« Previous Next »

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and custodians may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Post as "Anonymous" (Valid reason required. Abusers will be exposed. If unsure, ask.)
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Rules | Program Credits Administration