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Buell Forum » 1125R Superbike Board » Archive through May 19, 2021 » 09 1125cr runs terrible after exhaust and ECM reflash » Archive through July 15, 2020 « Previous Next »

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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Tuesday, May 05, 2020 - 08:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So, just to confirm, the bike sat outside since September, hadn't been started since then, and the first thing you did before starting it was to change out the exhaust and ECM? Always, ALWAYS, get a baseline before making modifications. If the bike sat for that long, the fuel is probably crap, and the injectors might even be partially clogged. Fuel pump could be on its way out, too.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes bike sat all winter. Tried it with a stock ECM and no change. Still waiting on the pump. Shipped out of Seattle on April 28, ended up in Los Angeles on May 7. I’m in western Canada. Wtf?! Oberon slave cylinder shipped from the UK and arrived the following day, which was totally unexpected. I have gone for the odd ride here and there in the mean time and now the bike is dying if I’m cruising along at 3500 rpm and pull the clutch in a chop the throttle.
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Shoggin
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thats a really expensive part to make a total guess on, without testing anything: (

Good luck, I hope thats it.
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Mad_max
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Seems odd to me that a fuel pump could be causing the stumble if the engine's not running out of fuel at high RPM. Then again my EFI knowledge is next to nothing.

Learning something new everyday.
https://technician.academy/pulse-width-modulated-f uel-pumps/
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Stevel
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 04:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For Shoggin's benefit. A fuel injector has a given orifice size and the amount of fuel that will pass through that injector will be a product of both pressure and time. It is necessary for the ECM to maintain the correct pressure at the fuel injector regardless of the engine speed and volume of fuel requirement. The ECM does that by regulating the pump speed through PWM. Injector time is determined by a stored binary value in a data array. The data array is addressed using an x axis and a Y axis value. These values are determined by throttle position on one axis and engine speed on the other axis. Other sensors, depending on the programmer's choice can be used to modify these address values and fuel pump speed via summing amplifiers and analog to digital converters. All these are in the ECU.

When you go into maintenance mode on your bike display, you can view what the ECU sees as fuel pressure from the pressure sensor, but you have no idea if the sensor is correct without a simple mechanical pressure gauge. Having one makes diagnosis of a problem so much easier. I highly recommend one.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shoggin the aftermarket pump was about 60$ all in so it wasn’t a huge cost. Bike now starts differently. When I hit the starter it cranks slightly longer and has a loud pop when it fires up.

Either way when the pump gets here I’ll know more when I install it. On a side note I’m still bleeding the clutch after fixing the weep. Clutch operates fine it just seems like if I pull the clutch and pop it into gear the bike will move sooner than it did before when releasing the clutch. It could be all in my head. I’ll keep bleeding it anyways.
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Shoggin
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 03:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

SteveL: I understand PWM. I'm asking why you think 1125 cold start enrichment is done that way.

Using a simple modifier for cold start temp Injector Pulse Width would be easier, and a MUCH more precise way to do it.
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Stevel
Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2020 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shoggin,
I guess I really don't. I don't have access to Tim's source code, but it is the normal way cold enrichment is done with FI controls because it affects the total engine. It is simply easier. Feedback is provided to the ECU via the pressure sensor and is every bit accurate enough otherwise it would not be so common to do. I guess you could monitor your fuel pressure and start the engine cold and simply watch. Try it and see yourself and get back to us with your observations.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well I finally got the new pump in the mail. 3 1/2 weeks. Ripped the bike apart, ran into that snap ring that belongs on a D11 instead of a motorcycle. I went and bought some industrial size snap ring pliers like I use at work and got it out. I ended up pulling the swing arm off to make it easier to work on. I got the new aftermarket pump in and finally got it running. This pump was putting out 100kPa (around 15 psi) bike would run roughly and spit codes everywhere.

Now if I cycle the ignition it’ll only read 40 kPa and the bike won’t start. Too lazy to drain the fuel and pull the pump again. Before I go ahead and order the factory replacement which is $260 USD (approx $8.2 million Canadian dollars), I’m going to pull that pump out and have a look to make sure I didn’t clamp one of the hoses etc. If this new pump is FUBAR it’ll suck. Buy once, cry once right?
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I found some motivation and went out and drained the fuel (mostly onto the floor) and pulled the pump housing out. Checked it with 12v power and it cycles on. Check for continuity and voltage to the pump and it all checks out. Completely disassembled the pump assembly (didn’t disassemble the actual pump) and checked everything and put it back together and went to install the thing in the bike and tore an o-ring 😂. Tomorrow it’s off to find some o-rings. Took a while to find some e-clips/c-clips or whatever they’re called after I launched the one holding the pump together into space.
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Zacks
Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

They're called Jesus clips.
As in 'JESUS where'd that damn think go to...'
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That’s a great name for them zacks! Found some new viton o-rings and slapped it together. No dice. Fuel pressure still shows 40 kPa. Is there a fuel pressure regulator in that fuel pump assembly? I’m wondering if I screwed it up somehow if there is one.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I’ve figured out why the new pump has no pressure. The brass pressure regulator on the old pump is a small orifice. The one on the new pump is about a 1/16” hole. I swapped the two. Got the thing slapped together and she started fine and pressure is good. Went for a ride around the block and it seems good. Going for a longer ride now
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2020 - 11:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Update for those interested-

I ended up ordering the complete factory pump assembly from St. Paul Harley. Got it installed and the fuel pressure is now within spec. Bike still has that stumble (more like cuts out or almost stalls) when taking off from lights. I did some more research on old threads from here and changed plugs today. No change. I took the fuel injectors out and cleaned them and checked their spray pattern and they look good. I unplugged the O2 sensors and no change.

Next thing on the list is the IAC. After ripping the bike apart 50 times in the in the last couple months I lost the IAC tube so I’ll have to get one of those. I’m at my wits end with this thing. There are no exhaust leaks, but I didn’t check where the exhaust flange mounts to the cylinder. Besides that I’m out of ideas. Before I start the bike the IAC steps is at about 115-120 if I remember correctly, and once I start it and it’s idling it’s about 65-70 IAC steps and when I bring the throttle up to 3k it sits there for a bit and then drops down to like 2K-2200 RPM without changing throttle input. TPS % and voltage don’t change during this time. I’ll fiddle around tomorrow and see if the IAC steps change at all during this.

I noticed it wanting to die again on decel especially on a harder downshift. This is eliminated when I unplug the sensor on the clutch master cylinder, but the trade off is if I downshift and slow down for a stop sign with the clutch in the bike will idle at around 2000-2200 RPM.

I would absolutely love this bike if it weren’t for this. It’s almost un-rideable in an urban environment. I don’t believe this is just “the nature of this beast”
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Stimbrell
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 07:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A real head scratcher for sure, only thing I can say is it is not normal so not the nature of the beast, I live in a city so all rides start and end in an urban environment and mine behaves fine. You can disable the rpm rise when the bike has the clutch out using Tunerpro which would solve the high revs at stops but it would just be a Band-Aid. I suspect it will be related to the TPS sensor. Good luck.
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Stimbrell
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One other thought, you have eliminated the ecm so the only other thing you changed was the exhaust, it could have something wrong internally, unlikely but if you have the stock exhaust not difficult to swap to test.
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Willmrx
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 09:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a good TPS I can send your way. PM me.
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D_adams
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 10:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is seriously sounding like an intake leak. I would bet a fair bit of money that either there's a small tear or it's crimped too tight at the boots and is leaking at the throttle body. Could also be the throttle plate shafts leaking, but it's not a common issue as far as I know.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for all the input guys! I’m gonna head out to the garage right away and start in on the IAC and throttle bodies. I’m gonna start the bike and let it idle and go over throttle bodies & intake area with propane to see if there is a change in RPM. I’ll keep you all posted. Have reset TPS many times and it’s at 2% closed and 100% WOT, and voltages look good.

I’ll report back.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Took the throttle bodies off and cleaned and inspected. Everything looked to be in good shape. Those rubber connectors that fit between the IAC and the throttle bodies fit pretty losely. I will have to replace them. In the meantime I wrapped them with Teflon tape and they fit much tighter. Disassembled and cleaned the IAC. Slapped it all back together and same shit different pile. Swing arm ground is tight, steering head ground is tight, battery connections are tight. digging in to check the engine ground now.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Will mrx- thanks for the offer! I found one locally and put it in and did a TPS reset and gave it a go. No change. I’ve seen many threads across the net with similar symptoms on these bikes. One guy ended up almost eliminating the problem with a different crank position sensor. Another guy fixed it by changing plugs. Another guy put in new fuel injectors. Another guy ended up fattening up the air fuel mix on the EBR ECM by about 10% at that RPM range to mimic stock settings. I’ll probably end up getting a Buell tooth dongle and having a look to see what it’s doing.

I took a video and it shows when it hesitated and the RPMs drop sharply. This was taken with the bike in neutral with no load on the engine, constant throttle position. The hesitation seems minor in the vid but when there’s a load on the engine like when leaving a light or turning left or right at intersections that sputter is huge and almost causes a stall. I’ll try to figure out how to take a vid while I’m riding that will show it without me eating shit because I’m riding with one hand filming and the bike is sputtering.

Here is the vid. Throttle was held steady. This is with the old TPS, new one is no different.

https://youtu.be/G1ZtKN-HsVQ
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2020 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey guys, thought I’d update this thread. No change with the bike. I’ve got tunerpro installed on the laptop and the buelltooth connector arrived in the mail so I’m going to mess around with it and see if I can do what this guy did:

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/594557.html?1284939376

If that doesn’t work I’m going to look into service bulletin B-089 re: rotor teeth machining. It’s the only other thing I can think of. Does anyone have any pics/documentation of b-089? Google shows nothing.
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D_adams
Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2020 - 01:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So while it's running at 3k rpm, have you had all the airbox stuff off (upper and lower parts) to actually spray anything on the intake seals to see if it's got a small leak there? Carb cleaner would work (typically at idle) but it would still show some change even at a "higher" idle like what you have in that video. It can be checked with the lower airbox plate in place, it's just a bit more of a pita to do it. Checking it with a propane tank (small induced leak from a hose) would be the best way, carb cleaner would do in a pinch.

I'd also pull the crank position sensor and check for small metal filings sticking to the sensor. It's not likely that's the culprit, but it's a possibility.
One from fleabay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Buell-Crank-Position-Trig ger-Y0640-1AMA-/161178322069

This one is $50 from st paul. https://st-paul-harley-davidson-buell.myshopify.co m/products/y0640-1c9-genuine-buell-ebr-crank-posit ion-sensor-2008-2010-1125-models-b4z

Almost worth getting one just to eliminate that possibility.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2020 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Dean, thanks for the write up. I’ve pulled the CPS and it looks good (that was in May). I had a bunch of codes stored (p0193, p0087, p2229) but I think those were from me pulling sensors etc. I’ve cleared them all and put about 40 miles on yesterday and they haven’t returned. I was doing continuity checks on the fuel pressure sensor wiring and it was giving me haywire resistance values, I’m gonna recheck today.

I used ECMdroid to increase the AFVs with no change. I did check with propane for intake leaks last month but I will do it again more throughly. I sent a private message to Stimbrell, he was the author of the thread I linked above. He was kind enough to send his modified map. We both have firmware BUE2D so theoretically I could try to run his map but he has a quick shifter and different exhaust. He ended up adding 10% fuel and retarding the timing to make his map closer to stock in that rpm range. My plan was to copy what he had done in that rpm range with his map onto my map and test it to see what happens. The only problem is that I am definitely not a computer guy and tunerpro is way too complex for me so I’m trying to find a local tunerpro person and just pay them to modify my map with Stimbrell’s data and test it out.

I was thinking it could possibly be the ground point on the engine too but would that cause something like this at such a specific rpm range? All I can think of is A) major lean condition (fueling, timing, intake or exhaust leak) making bike cut out or B) actual electrical issue causing ignition to cut out (ground, chafed wire etc or CPS/rotor clearance).

I’ll keep chasing it and swearing etc. I’ll eventually find the motivation to rotate the engine and check the engine ground. I’ll go out right now and pull the CPS and check with propane around the intake. I’ll probably get frustrated and end up loading stimbrell’s map just to see. Patience is a virtue of which I have none.
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Stimbrell
Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2020 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Throttle Monkey, send me your ecm file and I will do that for you, no problem at all, got some work to do on the wife's car but should have it back to you in a couple of days.
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Two_seasons
Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2020 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sure sounds/looks like an intake leak to me too, after running the video.

Throttle body o rings
Injector o rings

Doesn't require much to make them ape up!
Heat plays hell with rubber!
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2020 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Stimbrell, you are a saint! I’ll pay you for your time, I’m glad to do it!

So I went out there and loaded Stimbrell’s map and there was an improvement. I tried the propane all around the intake and there was no change in rpm while idling. I had the air filter and intake off so it was just throttle bodies. Did a tps reset after loading Stimbrell’s map. When I had everything apart I put a bit more slack in the throttle cables and did another TPS reset. Propane right down the IAC tube did nothing. Pulled fuel pressure sensor and check voltage to sensor, 5v. Checked continuity again and got a weird reading. Would flash between 0.0 ohms and OL which makes me believe there is a loose connection but tried again pushing harder on the multimeter leads While holding the socket with my fat fingers and it stayed at 0.0 ohms. When I held the throttle at 3k RPM I was in the garage with garage door 80% closed I noticed when it did that stumbled there is flame coming out of the exhaust when it does the stumble. Rechecked the slip joint between the barker’s exhaust and there is an air leak. I had sealed it with high temp RTV in spring when I’d installed it and there was no air leak. I checked the front exhaust manifold and it was good. Engine was too hot by that point to spray soapy water on the rear exhaust manifold. If I feel ambitious tomorrow I will remove the throttle bodies & fuel injectors again and check o-rings. I’m trying to think of how to seal that joint between the barkers exhaust and the headers. When I put the bike in gear and slowly let the clutch out it’ll idle along at 5mph no problem, but when I’m giving it gas it pops and then takes off or pops and stalls. This is right around 3.5-4.0 TPS %.

I just wanted to thank all of you for helping me out. This forum is an absolute gold mine of info!
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Stimbrell
Posted on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 07:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just an FYI I was using propane to check seals on my Sportster and just to see what would happen I sprayed it directly in to the carb mouth and it had no effect what so ever so you might want to try with something else. I am in the UK so the propane may be different to that in the US perhaps.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 07:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good to know Stimbrell! I’ll give Ether a try and see if it shows anything. The bonus is that if I get too frustrated I can take a lungful of ether and go into la la land for a bit.
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Dennis_c
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2020 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

the tps should be 2
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