|Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2020 - 08:12 pm: ||
My 1125 began to run very poorly while riding.
It is a loooong story if I go into every detail, but I can narrow it down to a few questions which could narrow down my diagnosis. Ideally if anyone knows about this specifically, please let me know, but I think I've eliminated all of the basic stuff that we could speculate about so don't need that.
No codes (but eventually did have one after cranking).
--If I unplug the Fuel Pressure Sensor, it should run pretty well unplugged if the pump is in spec?
--Does it need the dash plugged in/operating properly to run well? (After cranking and running the battery way down it did give a 0001 Connection Error code, but I suspect it may be from low battery as the dash had blinked off while cranking, etc., the battery was so low.)
--If the issue was one cylinder only, do these bikes run sort of o.k. on only one cylinder? I expect that with some clutch slippage, etc, it should be able to at least be barely ridable on one cylinder. Indicating that the issue isn't local to one injector that clogged up (or stuck partially open) for example.
For some shortish info on the condition: Riding along, downshifted and then it suddenly had very little power, barely moved. Spits and coughs trying to rev, can sometimes rev up and even have a fraction of a second surge, but usually can't even reach 4k RPM. No codes.
Pulled plugs and the rear looked perfect, the front was as sooty as could be. So installed the pair of plug/coils in opposite cylinders and the issue stayed on the front cylinder so I assume plug/coils are fine.
Unplugged injectors one at a time. Incidentally, never gave code while unplugging injectors or plug wires (but only momentarily.) Rear unplugged it stopped running immediately, Front unplugged it ran just the same. Though, the pipe was very hot, so some combustion happening on the front even if it seems all power is coming from rear.
I can't imagine that a fuel pump not making pressure or reduced flow would cause a sooty plug(?).
Tried to check fuel pressure, learned it wasn't a common fitting. Reading on dash has usually been 500-550 at key on, and 400+ while running. Sometimes exactly what the manual says, 517 key on, +/-400 while running and at 4k RPM. Other times has been 500ish while running, which could explain sooty plug? Has never shown low except for a fraction of a second in the 3's while working throttle which I expect is normal.
Unplugged FP Sensor and runs same.
Have wiggled/checked every connection I could find while "idling". Its barely started most of the time, occassionally idling enough to test it, and even less often able to rev up at all (usually just bogs with throttle input).
So, ready to do FP test, and swapping an ECM seems reasonable at this point if that were easy. Considering the issues, it seems more of a connection issue or ECM than fuel.
Engine cranks consistently (no quick spot as if no compression) but does make all manner of clanking and whatnot which I guess is normal for these
Have played with Buelltooth (anyone have opinion on Buelltooth/DroidECM, I'm surprised how little I've found on the forum regarding this, know of it causing any issues?, saving MAP, writing new and old, every TPS reset, etc I could try.
If it is an issue with both cylinders, then we can eliminate issues specific to any one cylinder such as injector or specific spark issues. If the sooty plug is relevant (obviously should be), then we might eliminate inadequate fuel issue (pump). So could be a FP sensor all over the board, or ECM, or wiring it seems to me. Happening all at once and no wiggling of the wires suggests to me not a wiring issue (but that's a guess), leaving me with ECM or FP sensor I suppose.
Did engine rotation a couple of tanks of gas ago, FWTW.
(Message edited by 1125rr on July 07, 2020)
|Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2020 - 11:46 am: ||
Unusual for sure, They run crap but are ridable on one cylinder, I had a plug fail, I really hope I am wrong but I think that as it failed following a downshift you may have broken one or more cam follower swing arms sometimes referred to fingers, you need to pull the cam cover to check, you can also do a compression check as I suspect you may have ended up with a valve stuck open. good luck.
(Message edited by stimbrell on July 08, 2020)
|Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2020 - 03:00 pm: ||
Engine rotation can lead to broken wires (stretched) or an electrical plug not being re-connected.
I agree with Stimbrell.
You also should check the wiring going to the ignition switch. Wires in the harness were too tight for the route used. Ignition switch is a known problem too. Can be disassembled.
Check any grounds you disconnected too.
Hope you find it.
(Message edited by two_seasons on July 08, 2020)
|Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2020 - 07:44 pm: ||
Thanks for the input, guys. Would you like the answer now or should I keep you in suspense (its at the bottom)...
I had originally written a longer description, and in that I noted that just after it stopped for one millisecond I smelled burnt oil, like the type of an oil leak. And also, looked down and saw that the seam of the muffler was weeping a little water (with some black carbon in it). And just after, while I was cranking it and diagnosing it, I noticed that there was possibly a puddle under the same part of the muffler.
So dug back into it today to do some more basic diagnostics. Has had the stator replaced less than a thousand miles ago, and when thinking through the possible issues that are not sensor related (no codes), but mechanical, I thought that maybe the stator was messing with the pickup it if had become loose or something. So peeked through the crank position sensor hole to make sure it was still tight, not doing some kind of screwy input by jiggling around. All fine.
I had also written in the longer description that I couldn't remove the injectors because 3 of the 4 threaded inserts spun freely. So I held open the throttles and shined a flashlight in there to look inside the engine. Used ECMDroid to pulse the injectors and verified mainly that they both looked the same while firing, but also primed the fuel pump between tests (would drop to 200 after 5 cycles of injector) and they both looked great spray, nice tight operation.
FYI one can see pretty well into the cylinders if you ever care to examine the internals of your top end , but made sure that everything was moving as it should, pushed the bike in 6th gear to turn it over and verify that the compression was strong/equal on both cylinders, which it was (although there was some liquid gas on the top of one intake valve which bubbled as I applied compression, that valve could seal much better). So all looked alright.
Then decided to dig into the exhaust a bit to verify that this was operating properly.
It is an almost brand new Barkers, less than a thousand miles on it. I was riding it for a few tanks of gas without any quiet core and noticed how every animal I encountered went bonkers, horses running in their pastures before I even came up on them, I've never seen cows jump around like that (not joking)...stirring me the rider the same...but it was the little girl in town who covered her ears as I putted past that had me trying the 1.5" Quiet Core. So installed that about 2 tanks of gas ago. (Note: took off much of the hard hitting feel from the exhaust, and I will say actually helped lower end a little, and very maybe decreased top end but it may be unnoticeable with the QC vs open muffler.)
I took out the screws that hold in the QC/Tailpipe and it looked like a mouse nest of fiberglass. This brand new Barkers had puked its guts out and it was totally clogged, even the spark arrestor screen couldn't show light through it. I think that if it hadn't had the QC in there it simply would've left the glass on the road, but there it was. Fired up and ran strong as expected.
I cannot explain how it affected that front cylinder so much differently than the rear. Maybe there is a clue here that something such as coil or injector on that cylinder is not as strong as it could be, or it could be circumstantial or due to AFV values being different between the two. Don't know.
I think this is a lesson in working through the basics, doing some detective work, --knowing that there IS-- a solution rather than giving up, and being extremely observant of every little variable such as the clue of the little bit of water that (I wasn't even sure) was on the muffler. And assuming nothing, such as a new muffler wouldn't fail like that.
I had some input from people suggesting that this would take weeks to diagnose, a sizable investment in tools such as FP tester rig (I was just about to build one), one shop quoted me 2 hours minimum ($180) to diagnose (I have worked as a tech, I'm pretty knowlegable, and have never heard of any more than an hour for diagnostics, it is considered on the tech if he can't do it in that amount of time), and I was tempted by the worst case scenarios, myself.
So, happy it's back on the road, thanks again for anyone's attention to this, even if you didn't respond.
Yes, clogged muffler.
(Message edited by 1125rr on July 08, 2020)
|Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2020 - 02:44 am: ||
Glad you were able to diagnose your self.
And thank you for posting your fix.
You sound like you know your bike well.
|Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2020 - 05:46 am: ||
Pleased for you, well done with the diagnosis.
|Posted on Friday, July 24, 2020 - 11:30 pm: ||
After my experience with it failing, and especially after the experience fixing the muffler: I suggest nobody buy a Barker's.
Again, muffler had about exactly a thousand miles on it when the baffle fell out and released all of the glass into the spark arrestor, clogging it, when I trucked it home.
So I contacted Barker's for a repack kit.
This customer service woman talked all manner of nonsense trying to "explain" how the mufflers work, then when confronted with the fact that it was defective, became totally defensive saying that its a family company and they wouldn't build defective products.
When that's the issue.
She first tried telling me that it must be rusted internally, the bracket which holds the baffle in place must've rusted and let it fall out. Then she said that it was normal wear and tear, that the glass packing holds the muffler in place and when that burns out, the baffle falls out. So it must've been normal glass burning out. She said the Quiet Core I had installed a couple hundred miles earlier exacerbates the burning.
I asked her how often one should expect to repack their mufflers, since this was only a thousand miles.
***She said to expect to do it as routine maintenance, like an oil change(!).***
She said the race teams repack every 150 miles, and if running on the highway etc it could only last a few thousand miles. Less if using quiet core and running at freeway speeds when heat builds up. So she said a repack in 1,000 miles is totally normal.
Back to the baffle; I opened it up to see what then issue was. The old baffle was about 3/8" shorter than the new one. The baffle sits on a cone on each end, probably only laps a half inch or so, its a pretty shallow cone. There are no brackets to rust off, she was making this up to try to explain away the issue. It pretty obviously was cut too short, I asked her to explain how it could fall out and release the packing if it was the correct length. It would be physically impossible. If anyone can explain how this isn't true, I'm interested in hearing it.
That is when she told me that their employees wouldn't do this, and that they dont even cut the baffles, they receive them a thousand at a time...and apparently done confirm they've been cut to length correctly. I tried to send her photos, but she just said she's done all she could (by giving false reasons).
I also noticed the bracket had a very sharp corner on it which had dug halfway thought the muffler body. I asked her if this was a known issue, she said yes (it is obviously goi to be an issue, its a knife edge into the aluminium) and they've changed the CNC design now to eliminate the sharp edge. Not to be too harsh on the company, but this is obvious and they dont seem yo care or stand by their products whatsoever. The attitude was "tough luck!". The company was apparently bought a few years back she said, and sometimes new ownership can be like that, only interested in the quickest buck.
So they're making more money off the failure of their muffler, now selling me a $75 repack kit. If I had another place to buy one I would, but its that or run it empty which they said would aneal the aluminum and it would crack apart.
To go off on a tangent (and plug a great company)...I once ordered new can belts for mhy Ducati from California Cycle Works. I had no idea how tight to tension them, and went way too tight, which almost immediately ruined them. I called the owner of CACycleworks for advice on tension, and he immediately told me he was sending me new belts free of charge. Hilariously; I told him it was my fault and I couldn't accept them, to the point we were almoxzt arguing on the phone over him sending me free belts, he wouldnt take no for an answer, wouldn't let me pay his cost plus shipping, nothing...until he finally let me pay the shipping. For the new free belts he sent me. Totally because of my error.
So these companies are out there. I don't expect that from ANY company, but I had asked for at least a repack kit at their cost to meet them in the middle, or I thought it right to give me a repack kit since it is apparently a defect. But to profit from this defect doesn't seem right. I didn't have a receipt and the piope was purchased 3 years ago now (full disclosure), bike has barely been ridden, miles are known, and its obviously a defect any way one cuts it.
So lesson learned ride a Ducati and only deal with CA Cycleworks.
No, but seriously; lesson learned (by me at least, not to make decisions for anyone else)--Don't Buy Barker's.
(Message edited by 1125rr on July 25, 2020)
|Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2020 - 06:39 am: ||
There are plenty of good options out there that make as good or even better power (not to mention look better) if you're interested.
|Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2020 - 11:07 am: ||
I have one of Dean's RT3s 20K kms on it took the tip off last winter to repack I thought nope packing in great shape . Great product Dean
|Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2020 - 07:45 pm: ||
Thanks guys for the additional info.
A reminder (from my long post) the main issue with mine was that the perforated baffle that runs down the center of the Barker's muffler fell out entirely, releasing the glass into the quiet core spark arrestor. It should be physically impossible for the big was of glass to puke out like that, indicating to me a flaw in design or manufacture, and my measurement of the baffle showed it was cut too short from the factory. So they got to sell me one the right length. :-\
It was a big mouse nest looking was, with the long stands still very much intact and some in decent shape.
Did someone remove the post that his shop had a Jardine in there with 3k miles and had already lost 80% of packing?
I guess these mufflers do flow quite a bit of hot gas compared with other model bikes.
I think of like a Ducati 996, RC51, or similar VTwin from 20 years ago, which would use two mufflers, at least 50% longer per muffler, possibly a cat, and another 2 feet of bent up piping between engine and mufflers. The 1125s run a shorty muffler effectively attached directly to the header.
If that is true of true of the Jardine, I wonder if many of these would burn glass that quickly. Maybe these Dean's RT3 is a different design which flows more heat or something. Or uses a heftier material in there (I wonder if a similar material to header wrap would hold up better in that furnace).
Thanks again for the info maybe it would be worth looking into a replacement for the Barker's if this is how the are.
|Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2020 - 07:33 am: ||
Tim Barker sold out to whoever owns the company now back in 2012. That's probably why there isn't good support there any longer would be my guess.
|Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2020 - 07:11 pm: ||
One more random factoid:
With the Barker Quiet Core installed (I've removed/replaced it a few times throughout summer) that bike runs almost exactly 20 degrees hotter across all ambient conditions. Normal changed from 184 to 204 in most conditions, higher on 95 degree days in traffic.