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Buell Forum » 1125R Superbike Board » Archive through May 19, 2021 » 09 1125cr runs terrible after exhaust and ECM reflash » Archive through April 29, 2020 « Previous Next »

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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2020 - 11:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey guys I’m new here, hello everyone!

Picked up an 09 1125CR in August of 2019 and love it. Anyways over winter I sent the ECM down to IDS and had them reflash ECM to match the barkers exhaust I picked up. Installed everything and started the bike last weekend. It was finally warm enough up here in Canada to go for a ride on the weekend so I did. Bike pulls very hard.

At 2500-3500 there is a noticeable stumble, like it momentarily loses ignition or fuel. It does it when coming from a stop or when cruising at that RPM. Battery is new, I did the stator test, tested fuel pressure both passed and have run sea foam in the fuel. I’ve been in contact with IDS and they’re working along with me. I denoided it, no change. Have any of you ever run into this? It didn’t do it last year with factory exhaust and stock ecm. I did upgrade the voltage regulator to an SH847 as well. Instrument cluster is telling me a charging voltage of around 14.4-14.7 volts. I’ll have to test that out with the voltage meter. I’ve been reading old threads on here and I’m at a loss. My next step is to pick up Tunerpro or ECMspy and see what it’s doing at that RPM. Temperature I’ve ridden at is about 5-20 Celsius, elevation 2000 feet.
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Shoggin
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 12:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did you perform a TPS re-set after plugging in the new ECM?

I would let IDS do your programming for you, after all, you paid for it already.

If you are interested in diagnosis, I would suggest ECMDroid (free on google play). It is MUCH easier to use. It communicates with the ECM via a wireless Bluetooth dongle, I like mine from Buelltooth.com
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Stevel
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 04:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You are an example of my exhaust comment I left earlier. After market exhausts can create very serious issues if not made correctly. Engine design engineers are not stupid. If free horsepower was available with an exhaust change, they would have done it in the beginning. Usually benefits from changing an exhaust involve tradeoffs elsewhere. You are experiencing that now.

These 1125 Buells run like crap below 3500 rpm anyway. The reason for that is the very aggressive camshaft timing. The inlet valve does not close before 60 degrees after bottom dead center. In order for that to work, you need very high inlet track air velocity, otherwise gas reversion takes place and the piston actually pushes the fresh fuel and air right back out the still open inlet valve at low engine speed. That's the first issue. The second issue is exhaust valve timing where the exhaust valve remains open until 15 degrees past top dead center. There is a rather large portion of the engine cycle where both the inlet valve is open and the exhaust valve is also open. This period is called the valve overlap period. On this engine it is very long. This is where a poorly designed or manufactured exhaust can really hurt performance. If the reflected vacuum in the exhaust is too good or mis-timed, this vacuum will evacuate the fresh fuel/air charge just inducted into the cylinder. You see, back pressure is critical for engine efficiency. This important back pressure is a reflected pressure wave caused by the exhaust collector and the timing of this reflection is a product of the primary pipe diameter and its length. Get that wrong and you have an extreme lean out condition, which is what you are experiencing. The best IDS can do is richen up the fuel/air ratio at this engine speed, but that too is a band-aid. Even that is difficult to do because the engine ECM will be running under closed loop controls at those engine speeds and the air/fuel ratio will be dictated by the oxygen sensor.
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Xbuell12s
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 06:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Was the Barker's exhaust used? If so, I'd recommend repacking. I run a Jardine on mine and love it but it needs to be repacked every year or two depending on miles. A customer brought a bike in with a Jardine that he bought new 3,000 miles ago. 80% of the packing was gone.

Not sure that is the cause of your issue but I think it would give you a better baseline.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 07:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shoggin- I have done multiple TPS resets. I forgot to mention that. I have no problem sending the ECM back to IDS if that’s what’s required, but I’d rather run some diagnostics here before sending it away. I also forgot to add that I checked for exhaust leaks, there are none.

Stevel- thanks for the write up! Very interesting and informative. I’m wondering if I could test this by simply creating an outlet restriction on the exhaust and see if it changes anything? I’m not saying you’re wrong at all, I’m just wondering if this was an exhaust design issue I’d expect to see many people who’ve installed a barkers exhaust run into this issue. I was thinking of putting washers of various IDs in front of the 1.5” quiet core to see if anything changes.

On a side note when I have the bike running in neutral and I bring it up to around 2500 RPM it won’t do this (probably because there’s no load on the engine) but I notice that if I turn the throttle as slowly as humanly possible it doesn’t really move from that RPM but then slightest turn of my wrist sends it to about 4000. It’s almost impossible to hold it around 2800-3200 by hand. Could this issue be TPS or throttle linkage related?
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 07:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Xbuell- it is a brand new exhaust.
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Mhpalin
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hi have you tried the bike without the quite core just a thought.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah I’ve run it with or without. I’m gonna try changing the spark plugs too, who knows it could do the trick
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Mhpalin
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 12:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Changing the plugs are easier said than done.Have you ever rotated the motor. I am in Lamont and have much experience at that.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mhpalin- Lamont, AB? We’re not too far from each other then. I saw a thread here where a guy did the plugs without rotating the engine, I was thinking of giving that a go.

What I really want to do is test another ECM to see if the problem remains or if it’s gone, got one you wanna rent out for an hour?
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Mhpalin
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you could ride out we could swap a couble out but I have COPD so am being a hermit. But I think we could figure something out. 587 988 2237.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I could totally ride out! I will give you a shout this afternoon
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1_mike
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Stevel -

What planet are you from?
My CR runs well...with your dreaded aftermarket exhaust, or more appropriate, muffler. And, by the way, it's a Barker muffler..!
There's no stumbling, no overheating or running hot. Gets reasonable mileage (or did before an exhaust cam started pitting).
I did my own mapping of both the fuel and ignition timing. with the hack programs thru the internet that were available back then. Sure, it took a while because I did the work on my own, sometimes changing twice a day.
But as of the partial tear down for the cam replacement, it run's very well.

In case you didn't realize...the factory's have the strict government requirements to deal with...so yea, more horse power CAN and have been had with the right system and mapping.
Buell themselves with the "Race system" that was available for the R / CR is proof of this..!

Mike
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 06:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey guys another thought popped in my head riding home. It’s about 15 degrees Celsius here. The AT gauge said it was 36 degrees Celsius. I also notice when I went into diagnostic mode that it thinks the air temp is a lot warmer than it is. Could this be leaning things out? I’m just taking a shot in the dark here because I’m assuming the sensor is picking up heat from the engine/engine is heating the air in the intake.
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Willmrx
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2020 - 12:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes you can replace the plugs without rotating the engine. The coil is flexible enough to remove it, but it does take some force. Finding the right combination of extensions, to remove the plug, is the trick.
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Buellrobot
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2020 - 12:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

AT reading on 1125's is (once bike warms up) usually significantly warmer than the ambient outdoor air temp. Not sure if this is obvious/self-evident, but mentioning it, in case not
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Coastrambler
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2020 - 01:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Regarding ambient air temp, it should be close to correct after a steady run of 5KM or so. Actually a bit less. Anyway, IAT is read in intake trunk. When stopped or going real slow it gets heated from motor.
I've ridden 1125 with FMF and listened to Barker mufflers. Didn't think they were all that loud.
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Stevel
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2020 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Remember also that these bikes suffer overheating of inlet air and fuel. Radiator exhaust air is directed right at the air box and fuel tank. This really aggravates an already very lean condition. It is also important to understand that the street ECM runs mostly in closed loop mode except over a certain engine speed and WOT. In closed loop mode the ECU learns from all its sensors including the oxygen and temperature sensors. So in effect any changes a user makes in the low speed area of the fuel map will effectively be ignored as the ECU will continually search for stoichiometry (14.9 to 1 AFR) If however, any of these sensors are wonky, the engine will run like shit.

Please note that the tunable ECM, the illegal one, only runs in open loop mode. Further, in setting that up, they replace the digital O2 sensors with analog ones and use separate data logging software to really know what is happening.

Please also note that racing exhaust systems are not designed to chug around city streets at 30 mph. In that mode, they run like shit. I own one of those early $1800 1125 racing exhausts. It is a work of art and it makes very good power for a race track when used with the tuneable ECM correctly set up. In point of fact, it is much better than the mickey mouse exhaust EBR used in WSB. In both cases they don't work worth a shit on the street. The factory stock system is much better.
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Ggggary
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2020 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Stevel There you go again; injecting fact and reasoning into an exhaust thread!
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D_adams
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2020 - 02:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Assuming nothing mechanical is out of sorts, the ecm supplied by IDS is spot on. That said, mine would pull cleanly from just over 2000 rpm to redline at any time and in pretty much any gear. This video I made a few years ago was done in 6th gear at about 35 mph.

Yeah, 2000 rpm roll on. Very minimal stutter at an rpm FAR lower than anyone would comfortably recommend and it does a fine job regardless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lafSuiOCK8E

Call me a fan-boy or whatever, all of my experiences with IDS have been stellar, as have been pretty much every ecm I've put on a bike from them. As a guess, it's probably close to 1000 of them, I stopped tracking it several years ago.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2020 - 10:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey guys, I rode out to see user mhpalin today. Great guy and it was great to meet a fellow Buell rider!

He was courteous enough to let me try a stock ECM and there was no change. Discovered that the IAC tube was missing so I’ve got one of those on order. We checked a bunch of different things but no dice. No matter what we did the problem still persisted. On one of the test rides pulling out from a stop sign it stalled in the middle of the intersection. Good thing there was no traffic. When I got home I stumbled onto this thread:

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/716377.html?1373164664

The OP of that thread went through a similar sh@t show and ended up replacing the fuel pump. So I put the bike in diagnostic mode and by the time I scrolled through to fuel pressure it had dropped down to 460kPa. Last time I checked it was around 550 and steady, now it seems it’s dropping quickly. When running it’s still in spec. But that’s just pressure, not volume. I don’t know if the pump is fubar or if the filter is plugged, but if I’m gonna do the work to get the pump out I might as well replace it.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2020 - 10:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Forgot to add, the reason I thought it was the ECM was because that and the exhaust were the two main things I changed besides the battery. I hadn’t started the bike since September of 2019 though so it sat all winter in the cold. Could have been the icing on the cake for the pump. Didn’t even cross my mind. Bike has just over 10,000 miles. I’ll report back once I get a new pump installed
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Stevel
Posted on Saturday, April 25, 2020 - 08:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One other point is that the fuel pump on these bikes are really crap and are a very common failure point. You can find the generic $5 pumps on eBay. I would highly recommend installing a mechanical fuel pressure gauge. It is easy to do. There is a post of mine a while back identifying the required fittings. Yes, I know in diagnostic mode the ECU displays what it THINKS the fuel pressure is, but a small pressure gauge right up in your face tells you what it really is. Please also note that the fuel pressure is controlled by the ECM. The pump is driven by 12 volt pulse width modulation from the ECM. This is how the ECM enrichens the mixture when the engine is cold, the ECM simply runs the pump faster changing the injector pressure.
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Stevel
Posted on Saturday, April 25, 2020 - 08:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

On a side note when I have the bike running in neutral and I bring it up to around 2500 RPM it won’t do this (probably because there’s no load on the engine) but I notice that if I turn the throttle as slowly as humanly possible it doesn’t really move from that RPM but then slightest turn of my wrist sends it to about 4000. It’s almost impossible to hold it around 2800-3200 by hand. Could this issue be TPS or throttle linkage related?

Probably not. You may note that this motor uses huge throttle bodies and Idle air is provided by the IAC (Idle air control). The IAC leaks raw air under the throttle plates as the engine requires depending on its temperature. It does this by a very small stepper motor than drives a tapered needle. In other words, idle air does not pass past the throttle plates. The large jump in engine speed is caused by the large air volume entering the engine just as the throttle plates start to move. This throttle plate movement should be tracked by the change in manifold pressure (MAP sensor) and the change in resistance of the TPS. If either of these are out of spec, this may cause the issue, but all these Rotax motors do that to some degree.
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Shoggin
Posted on Saturday, April 25, 2020 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"the ECM simply runs the pump faster changing the injector pressure."

Is that actually true? NO offense, but it seems an extremely rudimentary and inaccurate way to get cold-enrichment when precise, direct fuel injector control is easier to put in a cold temp map? Like the DDFI-2 Buells do?

OP:
I had a CR with a Jardine (IDS ECM) that ran perfectly well at all RPM's, until it blew off the pipe, LOL. I swapped on a Barkers (same ECM) and it still ran perfectly whether packed or not.

I think it's a different issue, you may be on to something about the fuel pump.
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Hammer71
Posted on Sunday, April 26, 2020 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Have you done the de-noid? If not thats your issue. Had the exact same setup and issue.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yup denoided it. Waiting on fuel pump to show up. I was also thinking of adding a G2 throttle tamer throttle tube, but first I’ll do the pump. I’m also going to mess around with the old pump out of curiosity’s sake. Wondering if the pump is kaput or if the built in fuel filter is clogged, or both
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Willmrx
Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Has anyone had luck replacing just the pump only, with a aftermarket pump?
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Tribalreaper
Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 - 07:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I live by my Dads tuning golden rule,
At 30 mpr 3rd gear open throttle should not stumble flutter or fall flat on the face, should have a strong pull!
My dad was a set up and tuner for Arctic cat and Kawasaki racers!
I wish he was still around he would like my 1125R Buell. His favorite motorcycle was his Indian flat head he had set up with Chrysler car pistons.
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Mhpalin
Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 - 09:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes I put a fleabay one in my CR no problems at all.
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