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Archive through April 29, 2020Mhpalin30 04-29-20  09:22 pm
         

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Thefleshrocket
Posted on Tuesday, May 05, 2020 - 08:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So, just to confirm, the bike sat outside since September, hadn't been started since then, and the first thing you did before starting it was to change out the exhaust and ECM? Always, ALWAYS, get a baseline before making modifications. If the bike sat for that long, the fuel is probably crap, and the injectors might even be partially clogged. Fuel pump could be on its way out, too.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes bike sat all winter. Tried it with a stock ECM and no change. Still waiting on the pump. Shipped out of Seattle on April 28, ended up in Los Angeles on May 7. Iím in western Canada. Wtf?! Oberon slave cylinder shipped from the UK and arrived the following day, which was totally unexpected. I have gone for the odd ride here and there in the mean time and now the bike is dying if Iím cruising along at 3500 rpm and pull the clutch in a chop the throttle.
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Shoggin
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thats a really expensive part to make a total guess on, without testing anything: (

Good luck, I hope thats it.
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Mad_max
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Seems odd to me that a fuel pump could be causing the stumble if the engine's not running out of fuel at high RPM. Then again my EFI knowledge is next to nothing.

Learning something new everyday.
https://technician.academy/pulse-width-modulated-f uel-pumps/
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Stevel
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 04:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For Shoggin's benefit. A fuel injector has a given orifice size and the amount of fuel that will pass through that injector will be a product of both pressure and time. It is necessary for the ECM to maintain the correct pressure at the fuel injector regardless of the engine speed and volume of fuel requirement. The ECM does that by regulating the pump speed through PWM. Injector time is determined by a stored binary value in a data array. The data array is addressed using an x axis and a Y axis value. These values are determined by throttle position on one axis and engine speed on the other axis. Other sensors, depending on the programmer's choice can be used to modify these address values and fuel pump speed via summing amplifiers and analog to digital converters. All these are in the ECU.

When you go into maintenance mode on your bike display, you can view what the ECU sees as fuel pressure from the pressure sensor, but you have no idea if the sensor is correct without a simple mechanical pressure gauge. Having one makes diagnosis of a problem so much easier. I highly recommend one.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shoggin the aftermarket pump was about 60$ all in so it wasnít a huge cost. Bike now starts differently. When I hit the starter it cranks slightly longer and has a loud pop when it fires up.

Either way when the pump gets here Iíll know more when I install it. On a side note Iím still bleeding the clutch after fixing the weep. Clutch operates fine it just seems like if I pull the clutch and pop it into gear the bike will move sooner than it did before when releasing the clutch. It could be all in my head. Iíll keep bleeding it anyways.
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Shoggin
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 03:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

SteveL: I understand PWM. I'm asking why you think 1125 cold start enrichment is done that way.

Using a simple modifier for cold start temp Injector Pulse Width would be easier, and a MUCH more precise way to do it.
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Stevel
Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2020 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shoggin,
I guess I really don't. I don't have access to Tim's source code, but it is the normal way cold enrichment is done with FI controls because it affects the total engine. It is simply easier. Feedback is provided to the ECU via the pressure sensor and is every bit accurate enough otherwise it would not be so common to do. I guess you could monitor your fuel pressure and start the engine cold and simply watch. Try it and see yourself and get back to us with your observations.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well I finally got the new pump in the mail. 3 1/2 weeks. Ripped the bike apart, ran into that snap ring that belongs on a D11 instead of a motorcycle. I went and bought some industrial size snap ring pliers like I use at work and got it out. I ended up pulling the swing arm off to make it easier to work on. I got the new aftermarket pump in and finally got it running. This pump was putting out 100kPa (around 15 psi) bike would run roughly and spit codes everywhere.

Now if I cycle the ignition itíll only read 40 kPa and the bike wonít start. Too lazy to drain the fuel and pull the pump again. Before I go ahead and order the factory replacement which is $260 USD (approx $8.2 million Canadian dollars), Iím going to pull that pump out and have a look to make sure I didnít clamp one of the hoses etc. If this new pump is FUBAR itíll suck. Buy once, cry once right?
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I found some motivation and went out and drained the fuel (mostly onto the floor) and pulled the pump housing out. Checked it with 12v power and it cycles on. Check for continuity and voltage to the pump and it all checks out. Completely disassembled the pump assembly (didnít disassemble the actual pump) and checked everything and put it back together and went to install the thing in the bike and tore an o-ring 😂. Tomorrow itís off to find some o-rings. Took a while to find some e-clips/c-clips or whatever theyíre called after I launched the one holding the pump together into space.
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Zacks
Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

They're called Jesus clips.
As in 'JESUS where'd that damn think go to...'
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thatís a great name for them zacks! Found some new viton o-rings and slapped it together. No dice. Fuel pressure still shows 40 kPa. Is there a fuel pressure regulator in that fuel pump assembly? Iím wondering if I screwed it up somehow if there is one.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Iíve figured out why the new pump has no pressure. The brass pressure regulator on the old pump is a small orifice. The one on the new pump is about a 1/16Ē hole. I swapped the two. Got the thing slapped together and she started fine and pressure is good. Went for a ride around the block and it seems good. Going for a longer ride now
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2020 - 11:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Update for those interested-

I ended up ordering the complete factory pump assembly from St. Paul Harley. Got it installed and the fuel pressure is now within spec. Bike still has that stumble (more like cuts out or almost stalls) when taking off from lights. I did some more research on old threads from here and changed plugs today. No change. I took the fuel injectors out and cleaned them and checked their spray pattern and they look good. I unplugged the O2 sensors and no change.

Next thing on the list is the IAC. After ripping the bike apart 50 times in the in the last couple months I lost the IAC tube so Iíll have to get one of those. Iím at my wits end with this thing. There are no exhaust leaks, but I didnít check where the exhaust flange mounts to the cylinder. Besides that Iím out of ideas. Before I start the bike the IAC steps is at about 115-120 if I remember correctly, and once I start it and itís idling itís about 65-70 IAC steps and when I bring the throttle up to 3k it sits there for a bit and then drops down to like 2K-2200 RPM without changing throttle input. TPS % and voltage donít change during this time. Iíll fiddle around tomorrow and see if the IAC steps change at all during this.

I noticed it wanting to die again on decel especially on a harder downshift. This is eliminated when I unplug the sensor on the clutch master cylinder, but the trade off is if I downshift and slow down for a stop sign with the clutch in the bike will idle at around 2000-2200 RPM.

I would absolutely love this bike if it werenít for this. Itís almost un-rideable in an urban environment. I donít believe this is just ďthe nature of this beastĒ
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Stimbrell
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 07:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A real head scratcher for sure, only thing I can say is it is not normal so not the nature of the beast, I live in a city so all rides start and end in an urban environment and mine behaves fine. You can disable the rpm rise when the bike has the clutch out using Tunerpro which would solve the high revs at stops but it would just be a Band-Aid. I suspect it will be related to the TPS sensor. Good luck.
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Stimbrell
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One other thought, you have eliminated the ecm so the only other thing you changed was the exhaust, it could have something wrong internally, unlikely but if you have the stock exhaust not difficult to swap to test.
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Willmrx
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 09:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a good TPS I can send your way. PM me.
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D_adams
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 10:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is seriously sounding like an intake leak. I would bet a fair bit of money that either there's a small tear or it's crimped too tight at the boots and is leaking at the throttle body. Could also be the throttle plate shafts leaking, but it's not a common issue as far as I know.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for all the input guys! Iím gonna head out to the garage right away and start in on the IAC and throttle bodies. Iím gonna start the bike and let it idle and go over throttle bodies & intake area with propane to see if there is a change in RPM. Iíll keep you all posted. Have reset TPS many times and itís at 2% closed and 100% WOT, and voltages look good.

Iíll report back.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Took the throttle bodies off and cleaned and inspected. Everything looked to be in good shape. Those rubber connectors that fit between the IAC and the throttle bodies fit pretty losely. I will have to replace them. In the meantime I wrapped them with Teflon tape and they fit much tighter. Disassembled and cleaned the IAC. Slapped it all back together and same shit different pile. Swing arm ground is tight, steering head ground is tight, battery connections are tight. digging in to check the engine ground now.
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Throttle_monkey1
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2020 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Will mrx- thanks for the offer! I found one locally and put it in and did a TPS reset and gave it a go. No change. Iíve seen many threads across the net with similar symptoms on these bikes. One guy ended up almost eliminating the problem with a different crank position sensor. Another guy fixed it by changing plugs. Another guy put in new fuel injectors. Another guy ended up fattening up the air fuel mix on the EBR ECM by about 10% at that RPM range to mimic stock settings. Iíll probably end up getting a Buell tooth dongle and having a look to see what itís doing.

I took a video and it shows when it hesitated and the RPMs drop sharply. This was taken with the bike in neutral with no load on the engine, constant throttle position. The hesitation seems minor in the vid but when thereís a load on the engine like when leaving a light or turning left or right at intersections that sputter is huge and almost causes a stall. Iíll try to figure out how to take a vid while Iím riding that will show it without me eating shit because Iím riding with one hand filming and the bike is sputtering.

Here is the vid. Throttle was held steady. This is with the old TPS, new one is no different.

https://youtu.be/G1ZtKN-HsVQ
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