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Three_buell
Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 - 12:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK, last summer I noticed what I thought was the opposite of the typical 1125 keyswitch broken wire problem. Loss of power when you turn the bars to full lock except my problem was The opposite, with steering locked and key removed I could jiggle the bars and bike would power up just like you turned on the key. I pulled the battery and tucked bike away in garage. I have five 2008 R’s and one 2009 CR and lots of parts. When I had the typical broken wire loss of power problem on a different 08 R in the past I made the repair by purchasing some silicone insulated wire off of eBay and replacing stock wire with longer better wire, I also made the same repair on 2 Of my spare parts. I had assumed that the “powering up” problem would be a similar fix to the “Loss of power“ problem because both problems occur when you turn steering to full lock. Never assume. So today I put brand new tires and battery on problem bike and replaced the suspected bad wiring part with one of my “Repaired“ spares. I have no lights, no gauges, Nothing. I tried my other “repaired” spare then I tried original part, battery is brand new showing 13.86 VDC all connections are good and clean. I have voltage to my 30 amp battery fuse and continuity test on all fuses is good and reading voltage through them. I swapped out all four relays with spares. Checked battery ground cable and ground wire at the headset.( by fairing bracket mounting point ) not sure if there are other ground wires yet. Started to untape the big mess of wires at the fairing bracket then decided to do some research. Shut the garage up, came inside and took the plastic off of my 2008 Buell electrical diagnostic manual. Wow, it will take me a while to get my head around this manual. Chapter 2 page 10 Initial Diagnostics says “Test the ground circuits to the battery for an open or high resistance“ if that is not it then it says “see instrument cluster and Gauges”. That’s it, nothing else. At this point I’m thinking I need to verify that the ground wire that comes out of the wiring harness and terminates by the fairing bracket mount Is the same smaller wire on the negative terminal of the battery and is continuous. It would be easy to put a jumper from battery negative terminal to where the ground is up front to see if that makes a difference. And I need to study this manual some, this is the first time I have had to open it.
If anybody has experienced this problem and would share their knowledge I would be very grateful.
The thing that is screwing with me is the fact that the bike was running and operating OK when I noticed the “power on“ problem and all I did was ride it home and pull the battery. Have not touched it since then until today? Thanks in advance. Jeff 217-722-5432
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Three_buell
Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 - 01:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I forgot to mention that I tested from the female four pin connector to the ground wire that is right there and also to the negative terminal of the battery. I could not read any voltage and I’m thinking that at least one of those wires should be hot.
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Three_buell
Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Got it. Problem solved

It’s amazing what five hours of sleep and some food will do for the thought/ reasoning process.

I tried to review the electrical diagnostics manual this morning during breakfast, quickly realizing how much I suck at interpreting and retaining the information I was seeing. So I thought I would try to test point to point and see if I had voltage to the different relays. Before I got too far into that process I thought I am just going to start over from the beginning to verify I didn’t miss something in my sleep deprived state last night.
With key switch on and run switch on I was not seeing voltage through the key switch fuse so I grabbed a new 15 amp fuse and stuck it in. Voilŕ, like magic everything now works. I did remove fuse box cover and try to install battery before remembering that I had to pull at least The back two fuses to gain enough clearance to install battery. I could’ve damaged fuse while trying to get battery in before I pulled the fuses. I don’t remember ever seeing a fuse do that. In my experience a fuse is either good or bad. I don’t know why all fuses tested good for continuity last night and showed voltage through them. At this point I am guessing that I missed something in that process. Doesn’t matter now problem solved.
I will now put bike back together to the point where I can see if my “repaired“ part fixed the “Power on” problem while keeping fingers crossed.
Apparently I should’ve adhered more closely to the “Keep It Simple Stupid” principal.
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Stimbrell
Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for posting the solution, we all learn from posts like these, good example of logic getting to the answer.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 - 02:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Interesting. The fuse box cover does have to come off to slide the battery in and out, but I don't remember the rear fuses having to be pulled out (and I have replaced my fair share of batteries on my 1125R.) I believe the whole fuse box can be pull up off the tray and then it can be moved around, out of the way if desired.
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Zac4mac
Posted on Friday, June 14, 2019 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

1125R had an endemic problem with wiring. Too much movement on ignition wiring.

I relieved the fairing stays to mitigate the issue but still have re-soldered connections to the switch 3 times so far.

Z
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

an old post of mine...added a ground cable to help the electrons flow...
scroll down for pix

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/674577.html?1336678989
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Panshovevo
Posted on Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 02:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm with Ron on adding ground wires.

I learned that on my first 1125, the '09 CR.

It had a little hesitation under 5000 rpm, even though it had supposedly been fine tuned by a hot shot race bike tuner on a dyno after the race use only ECM and Free Spirits style dual exhaust were installed.

Long story short, I found the ECM ground point on the side of the cylinder, cleaned it even though it looked very clean, then added another 12 ga wire directly to the negative terminal of the battery.

It made enough of a difference that the wife noticed it from the rear seat within a couple of miles.


Hi Zach, long time no see! Been meaning to call you, but the XB9R got put on the back burner by other projects. Just got started on it again last weekend.
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Stevel
Posted on Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 03:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This chassis ground practice is a real problem on many vehicles, not just motorcycles. This was a nightmare on my STILL forklift as well. It is done to save money and weight in the wiring harness, but it opens the door to corrosion issues, some of which can be very frustrating to locate.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 04:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I tried the additional ground wire project that Nuts created and got stymied with the lack of room between the swingarm and ground wire termination point (I did not want to drop the swingarm.) Plus I know there was some add'l complication because I eventually cut the new ground wire end loop to make it two prongs. I just couldn't get it to fit together with basically one hand in there.

I believe it's a good idea to add a ground. I would still like to do this.

John, Can you explain your solution? You added a ground wire directly from the negative battery terminal to where? This would serve the same purpose as the Nuts ground wire going from the termination point under the tailsection to the bolt on the starter?
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Panshovevo
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Harlan, IIRC, on the left side of the front cylinder, there is a small bolt holding four ECM ground wires to the engine. There are two ring terminals with two wires in each one. It's a PITA to get to as it's between the side of the cylinder and the fuel tank/frame, but it can be done without rotating the motor. Some of the wiring has to be moved around.

I removed the bolt (10mm head), cleaned the surface the best I could, and added a 12 gauge wire from that point to the negative terminal of the battery.
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I used a 1/4" drive socket set to get that nut back on the ground stud...took several attempts...when you don't have tiny hands ...get some tiny tools...hth
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Panshovevo
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

IIRC, the last time I had the nut off of the ground stud on the back of the frame on one of the 1125s, I put a couple of small washers behind the nut (inside the socket) to hold the nut out near the end of the socket.
I also put some heavy grease on the nut to hold it in the socket until it was started on the threads.
And like Ron said, use 1/4" drive tools...they fit where 3/8"drive won't.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2019 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sooo...do both of the approaches described achieve the same result?

I believe there was an issue with the clearance between the ground stud and hole in the tailsection that made slipping the ring from the new ground cable onto the stud. I tried to cut the end of the ring out to press onto the stud from the side, but it didn't fit easily and there wasn't enough room to get two hands in there to fiddle with it...so I quit.

(Message edited by fresnobuell on June 17, 2019)
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Panshovevo
Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes and no.
The 12 ga wire I added wouldn't likely carry enough amperage to assist the starter current flow.
However, it will help ensure stable current flow for the ECM under all conditions.

That's my theory, anyway...

Ron's method would replace mine. Mine wouldn't replace his. It did what I wanted it to, though.
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Panshovevo
Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Another possibility is that the direct ECM ground helped eliminate or quiet some electrical noise that was being generated somewhere in the system.

Just another WAG (wild ass guess) that popped into my head as I was bolting the XB9R back together today after my latest attempt at sealing the intake to the heads. (Might have done it this time, it's sounding promising on the lift table)
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 - 01:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think I am going to to take another stab at Ron's method again.

Ron, were you able to add that ground cable to the existing stud without dropping the swingarm or doing anything with the tailsection undertray? Just curious.

Thanks.
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 09:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

no swing arm dropping or tail section removal...must admit I'm a former Honda mechanic... they (Honda) build things for people with small hands...or small tools...Pan's hints on how to hold fasteners are similar to some of my "learned" tricks working on rice burners...if I remember I used a 1/4" drive socket (10mm)with some extra nuts loaded in it to hold the last nut high enough to engage the stud...I believe I started it with my fingers turning the socket for fear of cross threading the stud, once started i removed the socket emptied the extra nuts and then added the socket to a 1/4" drive ratchet...hth
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 03:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hmmm. I remember threading the nut back on was a pain, but doable. My main issue was the tailsection pan getting in the way of the new ground wire ring. It wouldn't go onto the stud. I would have to go look at it again, I am putting on a new set of tires this week so I will take another look.
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

in aerospace we used to put ring lugs "back to back" in order to have maximum stud length for the self locking nuts...most aerospace companies have a standard for the number of exposed threads above the lock nut...if I remember correctly that's how I installed the additional ground. hth

ground stud detail
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Friday, June 21, 2019 - 03:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

How did you get the ring past this piece of the tray?



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Nuts4mc
Posted on Friday, June 21, 2019 - 11:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

my memory is bad...I'm old
1) to help in getting to the ground nut/stud...I jacked up the bike (rear wheel off the ground) which extended the shock and gave better access as the swing arm was "down" and away from the stud
2) there is a plastic shield that is held by a couple of nuts that I removed...see pix...
3)removed the (ground) nut, slipped the add'l ground "into" the plastic shield and onto the stud, placed the plastic shied back and attached it's nuts, then finally attached the ground nut (I think) hth

grndnutplastx
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Panshovevo
Posted on Friday, June 21, 2019 - 04:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Harlan, FWIW, removing the drive belt and the lower shock mounting bolt will give you a lot more room to work in, as I recall. (Assuming you are lifting the rear of the bike!)
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