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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 01:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok guys, I figured this deserves its own thread--so here it is. I will pull over some posts from the other thread where we drifted to this subject.

Sorry for the volume of my Barker's exhaust. It certainly makes it more difficult to hear the valve train clutter. Turn up your volume and try to concentrate on the valve train noise. From my untrained ear, it certain sounds like there is a difference. I cut the videos once I get going since all you can hear at that point is the exhaust. Let me know your opinion.

Before Tc-W3 (straight gas)


After 1 ounce TC-W3 added to near full tank


(Message edited by fresnobuell on November 11, 2018)
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Shoggin which began the convo:

Not to go too sideways on this thread... but...; )

When I was riding my CR in Florida and doing track days at PBIR during the summer, I tried every measure of heat insulation I could think of.
Out of the (seriously) 20 things I tried only 2 made a measurable difference and one sounded way better.

1) Dynamat underhood heat shield. I don't know if the brand matters, but I used a TON of it and it seemed that using it on the the top and bottom edges of the frame/tank made more of a difference than on the inside next to the engine? Along with tech spec outer grips I got -20 degree average at the same spots of the tank and MUCH happier inner thighs. No more raw fuel spitting out the overflow, but I could still see vapors.

2) 2-stroke oil. Oh lord I can't believe I'm admitting this... I experimented with 1-2oz of 2-stroke oil (full tank) and consistently saw 8(!!) degrees lower coolant temp at the same ambient. Repeatable and consistent.

The third is a bit more subjective, but instead of blindly putting in 20w-50 v-twin in all the time... the Buell manual stated to use straight 50w for the temps I was riding. After draining that hot oil (that was thinner than water), I changed to straight 60w. for the summer. The result was the normally clacky, loud rattly engine was very, very, much quieter. I wouldn't recommend it in cooler temps, read the manual.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Nuts4mc:

two stroke oil and gas in your 4 stroke:

old school mechanics used to add "Marvel Mystery Oil" to the gas to "lubricate the top end"???? (valves and valve guides need love too)...there is a lot of horror pictures of 1125 pistons with valve impressions...could it be that the valves and guides just don't get along?

My two stroke roots...Jennings, Shillings, Neilson (Cycle) used to preach make the fuel mix "rich" by adding oil to the ratio...helping rings seal and pistons slippery...but oh the problems of early ignition systems and fouled plugs...not to mention how lean can you run that engine before detonation sets in???

this old man's (WASG) theory...
Today's gas has alcohol in it which is mixable (miscible) with water...the two stroke oil mixes well with the alcohol (and water) making it easier to ignite and lowers the temperature during combustion....yes I run a little two stroke oil in my tank, but not every fill up...does it help?... not sure
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Stimbrell:

Back in the day many used to add two stroke oil to the tank but beware, by adding this you are effectively leaning the fuel air mixture, those who went too far ended up seizing the top end rather than lubricating it, if you want to add oil to your fuel you should add fuel in the tables to compensate. Personally I would not do this but ymmv.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Shoggin:

Here's my thought process of why I feel 2-stroke oil is safe. Ignoring the repeatable positive result and any theories of what-my-buddy-told-me's : )

1oz of something in a full Buell tank is just about 0.2%.

For comparison, 10% Ethanol gas (typically tested a 20%+ already, and now authorized MORE up to 15% to save the farmers..: (.but I digress) that's almost 80 oz/tank!! More than a 2 liter bottle! of low BTU junk that Buells swallow every tankful with no problem. We're talking running, not fuel hose destruction.

Buell's (since about 2001) are fuel injected and even stock settings can compensate between 50% and 150% of total global fuel mapping. No need to mess with mapping by adding 0.2% of anything slightly flammable to your tank.

2-stroke oil is designed to be burned. I have no idea if Marvel Mystery oil is?

With no other changes, I would run 3 tanks with, and 3 tanks without, then did a blind test because I'm a curious dork and had my friend either add it (or not) so I wouldn't know to verify my subjective findings on the CR.

Besides the coolant was 8 degrees lower, the fuel pump got so quiet I could barely hear it prime, smoother idle (relative to Buells haha), and a 'smoother' exhaust note even through a Keda pipe.

I never did dyno testing or had any issue with sensors, injectors, filters, or anything. Just like Tapatio, I'll put it in everything!

Any argument will be taken to the extreme (especially on the internet haha). I guess we could start a whole new thread on the 2-stroke oil thing? I love to hear any factual stats if someone has done legitimate testing? You guys always impress: )
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Marketleader:

f you're gonna add 2-stroke oil, you should probably use TC-W3. There is a thread not specific to bikes at bobistheoilguy.com https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.p hp/topics/1429603/1
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Panshoveo:

Thanks to everyone who took off and ran with this thread. I’d love to hear more if there is any.

I’ve been a fan of Marvel Mystery oil for many years, and have frequently added small quantities to the fuel in my air-cooled bikes. Using two stroke oil never occurred to me for some reason.

One thing to keep in mind when adding oil to your fuel is that you are reducing the anti-knock rating of the fuel.

I have considered adding a product that Lycoming puts in 4 oz bottles and sells for a ridiculous price, that can be bought by the gallon for not much more.

Lycoming mandates it’s use in the oil of some engines to prevent scuffing, but the same product is added to fuel to help scavenge the lead out of low compression engines.

I have a Harley 80” shovel head that I made a calculation error when cutting the cylinders and heads to close the fire ring gap and raise the compression.
I was aiming for 10.5:1 compression, and wound up around 11:1. Most pump gas is okay, but if I’m taking a road trip, I carry a gallon of toluene in a saddlebag to boost the octane when I get a tank full of crap gas. Two stroke oil would probably help add some needed lubricity to the mixture.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Stevel:

The reason I did not respond to this oil thing was that I did not have enough info. Oil generally has a lower flash point than gasoline and can cause serious and damaging detonation, but not all oil has the same flash point. So, without knowing what the 2 stroke oil is exactly, no one can say what is happening.

Yes, toluene does raise the fuel flash point, but it's pretty expensive to use.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Fresnobuell:

This is certainly interesting. Adding 2-stroke oil may lower operating temps and lubricate the top end? Seems like a worthwhile thing as long as there is no collateral damage....

I wonder if those running the Race ECM would be in a better spot to do such a thing as it provides a richer mixture....Thoughts?
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Nuts4mc:

a blog entry on the subject of two stroke oil in a 4 stroke...author uses a 4 stroke MX as his test bed...

https://inspirationmomentsblog.wordpress.com/2015/ 12/27/2-stroke-oil-in-a-4-stroke-motorcycle/

claims 1oz to 1 gal is a "sweet spot" (128:1)

hth
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Fresnobuell:

He also says that it might foul or disrupt the Oxygen sensors?

Does anyone know how the race ECM interacts with the Oxygen sensors? Are they even used with the Race ECM?
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Steve1:

The normal ECM transitions between open and closed loop operation. This includes those ECMs labeled race only with special tunes for after market exhaust systems. The REAL Race ECMs, the ones that come with the special software that allows the tuner to change almost everything, those operate in open loop only. The normal ECM and closed loop operation uses narrow band O2 sensors. These are switching on/off as the engine operates about stoichiometric operation (A/R 14.7 to 1). The real race ECM running in open loop only does not need O2 sensors at all. O2 sensors are used, but they would be wide-band (analog) and used by data loggers not the ECM. Oil, tetraethyl lead and many other fuel additives will damage all O2 sensors over time, as these additives will coat the sensors with an ash, like lead bromide.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Fresnobuell:

Good info, Steve. Do you know if the O2 sensor gets fouled (with EBR Race ECM, not real race ECM) will it throw a trouble code/check engine light?
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Stevel:

Harlan,
That's actually a good question. The answer is maybe. The ECU will throw a code if it detects the signal out of range. That would probably be a short or open circuit only. Contamination would most likely not be detected by the ECU
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Fresnobuell:

Maybe a better plan of attack is check the the O2 sensor value prior to "oil treatment" (assuming it's "normal" now) and see if they fluctuate over time if adding oil to the gasoline?

IDK. 1:128 ratio is 4-5 ounces per fill up is way more than what Shoggin is saying at 1 ounce per tank.

I suppose a tank or two wouldn't hurt anything to see if she feels any different. If the O2 sensors go, they are replaceable....
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Shoggin:

Correct. 1oz or so is 0.2%.
There won't be any fouling or ash or tuning, or gremlins...

K.I.S.S.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Fresnobuell:

Just to clarify from your earlier post. You have done 1oz per tank and have had measurable positive results? Do you add 1 oz every tank now or did you just test this out for a few tanks?
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Shoggin:

It made the biggest difference on the CR in Florida summer (the reason the OP posted) but yes:

1-2oz almost every tank. There are times it's not convenient or I'm lazy but after a few 'dry' tanks I am reminded to keep doing it. An extra valve train rattle or loud fuel pump prime or something will remind me without even thinking about it.

I don't subscribe to "more is better" and I don't go for old-wives-tales either. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but with my very, very, unscientific testing, this little trick has proven itself to me time and time again.

YMMV.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Fresnobuell:

Well, I am taking the plunge. I ordered a gallon of semi-syn TC-W3 as well as some 8oz graduated plastic bottles to keep one in the tailbag.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Fresnobuell:

So I went for my first ride with a little more than an ounce in nearly a full tank of gas. I would have to say the results are inconclusive. No real surprise I guess.

I ride the same loop 90% of the time these days, but the ambient temperature on Sunday (with mixed gas) was quite a bit lower than it has been all year (appx 64 degrees.) That being said, I ran at about 180 degrees on the uphill portion of the ride. Usually I would see about 199-200 degrees on these portion, but the lower ambient temperature obviously had something to do with the much lower engine temperature. However, I cannot remember ever seeing this low of a temperature (180 degrees) as it's uphill and I usually really take advantage with lots of throttle.

One the boring slab ride home, I was seeing as low as 167 degrees, which is where I think the thermostat closes.

I think engine temperature is the most quantifiable measure of this mixed gas experiment, but I could have done alot better with my "testing".

Noise is pretty subjective. If I had to make a statement about it, I would say valvetrain noise was a bit less.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From Fresnobuell:

I run a Gopro on the side pod. I compared some video sound of the bike from before and after I added the TC-W3. Believe or not, it sounds like there is less valve train clatter post TC-W3. When I get some time, I will upload to YouTube so you guys can listen for yourselves.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2018 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK GUYS, OTHER THAN THE FIRST POST WHERE i POSTED THE YOUTUBE VIDEOS ALL POSTS HAVE BEEN COPIED TO THIS THREAD. ANYTHING BELOW THIS POST IS A NEW POST REGARDING THIS SUBJECT.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________

(Message edited by fresnobuell on November 11, 2018)
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Panshovevo
Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So, last night I fired up my first 2008 R model, the one I crashed last year and repaired.

I’ve been riding it around home on private roads, but haven’t put a tag on it yet.

It was almost out of fuel, so I put a couple of gallons of fresh 93 octane in, then added 4 oz of TC-W3, and topped it off with more 93 octane fuel.

It was relatively cool outside, but still warm enough to ride in shorts and a t-shirt around the ranch.
I can’t say how much difference the oil made, and how much the cooler, drier air made, but between the two, the bike ran smoother and sweeter than I’ve ever heard or felt it.
It has always run better in cooler weather, as is typical of internal combustion engines, but seriously, I’ve never had it run this smooth.

It’s a 19,000 mile engine with a good bit of track time on it.
Other than the modified D&D 2into1 exhaust, and a Power Commander V w/Autotune and dual wideband O2 sensors, I don’t know of anything else that’s been done to it, but it has always run strong.
It never seemed to be smooth before, though.

The two stroke oil could be improving the ring seal, leading to more even compression between the cylinders.
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Shoggin
Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Glad you like the results, but I keep warning that about 1oz per tankful is plenty and more is definitely NOT better.

I got my best repeatable results with 1-2oz of oil and it didn't get better with more of it in the tank.

You may run into the hypothetical problems posted above by continuing to use way too much oil like that. I dunno, YMMV, buyer beware, professional driver, closed course, etc...
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Interesting. I am afraid to use more than an ounce in a full tank, but you are closer to the "Sweet spot" as claimed in this blog.

https://inspirationmomentsblog.wordpress.com/2015/ 12/27/2-stroke-oil-in-a-4-stroke-motorcycle/

I just bought a Kawasaki SX-R stand up jet ski for the summer fun at the lake. I am considering putting some 2-stroke oil in the fuel during break in. It's a 4-stoke with basically a ZX-14 motor in it.


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Terrys1980
Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2018 - 12:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So no one is worried about shortening spark plug life or carbon build up from the burning of the oil? Or is that not an issue?
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Panshovevo
Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2018 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I theorized that the higher the mileage of the motor, the more benefit would be seen from the addition of oil. A five mile ride is not proof, but it is indicative.

This is a backup bike, and never gets far from home. If it was my primary rider, I would have started much more conservatively.

With a mixture ratio of approximately 170:1 (if I did the math correctly), and a compression ratio of 12.3:1, I seriously doubt plug fouling or carbon buildup will be an issue in one tankful.
I will not be running this mixture on a continuing basis unless further testing leads me to do so.

Keep in mind that some two stroke engines run mixtures as high as 24:1.

(Message edited by Panshovevo on November 22, 2018)
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2018 - 01:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Pan, keep us updated here as to your findings.

It wouldn't be hard to pull a spark plug to check. The carbon buildup is more serious of an issue, if it is an issue. Maybe some more frequent Seafoam cleansing is a smart idea?

(Message edited by fresnobuell on November 22, 2018)
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Panshovevo
Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2018 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Will do, Harland.

I recently reconnected with the local Indy who has done dyno work for me in the past.

I’m trading the S&S 145” motor that’s been sitting in my shop for about four years now toward an older Dyna with an S&S 124” motor and Baker tranny that he has. He’s been after the 145 since I got it, because of a rule change in the S&S 124 Challenge class he races in that allows him to use that motor.

To cut to the chase, I found that he’s been using his dyno more recently, finding out what the Milwaukee Eight likes for fuel and ignition maps, so I’m going to have him do a couple of pulls for me.

I’ll try to do a few on the older 1125R, with and without two stroke oil in the fuel.

BTW, I’d think twice about using two stroke oil during a break in period.
You don’t want too much lubricity on the rings and cylinder walls before the rings have seated completely.
You could potentially disrupt the break in process before it’s completed.


BTW, a ZX-14 motor on a standup jet ski???

Does it come with a harness to hold you on?

(Message edited by Panshovevo on November 22, 2018)
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Shoggin
Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2018 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'd be super excited to see dyno results! I doubt oil fouling is any issue, this type of oil in meant to be burned in a combustion chamber, it's not gear oil: )

I totally agree with Panshovevo about break-in. I'd even go so far as using a Zinc-additive to promote ring seal (wear) during break in.
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