G oog le Buell 1125R Forum | Login/out | Topics | Search | Custodians | Register | Edit Profile


Buell Forum » 1125R Superbike Board » 2 Stroke Oil in Fuel « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through November 22, 2018Shoggin30 11-22-18  02:12 pm
         

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stimbrell
Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2018 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just one thought, how many people who design, manufacture or race four stroke engines, people like Erik Buell for instance, have ever said "add two stroke oil to our engines, it's a really good idea"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Shoggin
Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2018 - 06:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I understand what you're trying to say, but the reality is that:
1) Engineers aren't perfect.
2) The thing your feeding your engine (Gasoline) is different now than when the engine and even the injection tune was designed. Specifically needing more lubrication.

and it's getting worse: For instance the Executive branch of our gov't just authorized up to 20% Ethanol in everyones gas. Motorcycles were never designed for any Ethanol.

Among many other problems we know of, Ethanol reduces the lubricity of gasoline so spinny stuff like your fuel pump thats submerged in your tank now has additional fiction to overcome.

Engine designers can't be expected to know what junk the .gov will mandate 20 years later for gasoline, so IMO putting in something to make that gas closer to what it was is a good idea.

I'm not one to go for the easy fix. I don't even like the venerable Seafoam of Marvel Mystery oil. But the facts are proven to me by my own testing and repeatable results. YMMV
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fresnobuell
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2018 - 01:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

BTW, a ZX-14 motor on a standup jet ski???

Does it come with a harness to hold you on?




Nah, water is slightly more forgiving than pavement right?

It's slightly bigger displacement @ 1,500 cc. Because of the different application, it's tuned for torque and ONLY makes 160 HP, not 200. Although there's no tach, I believe it revs out at about 8,000 something RPM. Compression is a bit lower so they run 87 octane.

It does somewhere between 62-64 MPH depending on conditions and reportedly gets there from a rolling start in about 4 seconds.

My first watercraft of any kind, so a whole new arena for me....

PS--Good point about holding off on the 2-stroke oil during the break-in period.



(Message edited by fresnobuell on November 23, 2018)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fresnobuell
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2018 - 01:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey guys, I am not going to put any 2-stroke oil during the break in for my Jet Ski. Thank you for setting me straight. That is obviously counter-productive to what is trying to be accomplished during a motor break-in.

I would like your opinion in general on break-in procedure. There are basically a couple schools of though--1) the gentle break-in as recommended by the manufacturer or 2) the "run the redline" break-in.

Many people believe the slow break-in process is more for the rider than the motor. How many people would kill themselves on a motorcycle (or overpowered stand-up jet ski) if the prescribed break-in was doing several runs to redline and back?

I did the "run to redline" on my 1125R and 29,000 miles later it burns zero to VERY little oil. I would say it was successful, but only based on low oil consumption and the fact it still runs like a champ after I beat it to death every weekend.

THoughts?





(Message edited by fresnobuell on November 23, 2018)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevel
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2018 - 04:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

In science the discovery process is really simple. A wild ass guess (WAG) is made, then every effort and test is performed to prove it isn't so. Only after exhaustive and definitive tests have successfully been made can the discovery be claimed valid.

It's kinda like loud exhausts make more power. Most of us know that's BS. The correct answer is sometimes, but usually not. In most cases, aftermarket exhausts just shift the power curve making the power more peaky, greater in one range, but lesser in others.

In the case of fuel additives, whether oil or some other witches brew, the first thing is to identify expectations. Are we looking for more power, more efficiency or perhaps more wear resistance, whatever. In every case definitive tests must be devised, executed and recorded to answer the question if it works. Planting your ass in the seat and cruising around the block doesn't cut it. Testing is expensive, time consuming and often not very definitive.

Some reasonable conclusions can be made though. First, if oil in the fuel was advantageous, it would have been done before by the engine manufacturers, racers or the fuel companies. After all, the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) has been around for 120 yrs. The simple fact that it isn't being done is indicative.

The current claim is that the addition of two stroke oil allows the engine to run cooler. How do we test that? We should realize that delivered power is a product of intake air heating. We burn fuel to heat the intake air charge and then use the pressure differential to drive the piston. We only use 30% of the heat produced to push the piston, the rest is lost in the exhaust and cooling system. So, the question arises, is the observed temp reduction due to a power loss? Is the measured work per volume of fuel consumed better or worse? We can test these on a good dyno. I suspect it has already been done.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fresnobuell
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2018 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Stevel, good points. If Pan has ready access to a dyno perhaps he can do a pre and post dyno run with the 2-stroke oil? It would be easy to start with a gallon or so in the tank and add some. It would be great if he could even do a run or two with the 1 Oz and 4 oz per tank ratios.

What is your opinion on engine break-in?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevel
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2018 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Harlan,
The requirement to break in a motor has diminished over the years to be almost non-existent. In years past, in was not unheard of to dump a handful of Dutch cleanser in the intake to break in the cast iron piston rings. Today we cut parts to exact size with very tight size tolerances. Our material technology has expanded in leaps and bounds. We pretty much build our engines to size in the first place. For instance if my engines do not do better than 5% in a leak down test right at assembly, I've screwed up. The only issue is with flat tappet cam shafts. The iron cams still have to work harden, but if that hasn't happened in the first few minutes, you will be replacing the cam anyway. The days of special break-in oil are long gone. You can almost run the engine at full power right from the start.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Shoggin
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2018 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpoglovyy_8
Interesting vid on Break-in opinions^^^

I totally agree with you Stevel, but should clarify that gasoline today isn't just gasoline. It does have several additive packages in it. In fact, additives are the only thing that differentiates the brands. The base/ refined gasoline is exactly the same.

The argument that 'because no one else does it' has its flaws.

Mfg's would never admit their product is nothing less than perfect, or could be improved by anyone but themselves.
They are also much more restricted than the consumer is. Where we can happily put whatever magic formula we believe in, MFG's must still pass EPA guidelines and I doubt adding 2-stroke oil helps emissions...

A racer isn't using the same Arco gas from the pump, that I am. They are either using 'Race gas', with additives... or supplied gas, tightly controlled by the race series, "for a level playing field", because changing what you feed the engine does work. Ask Smokey Yunick.haha
Besides, If a racer is using something and getting an advantage, he sure ain't gonna tell me!

But none of that matters, I don't care if anyone else does it. It definitely does what I want it to do, (which was cool the bike down) and was proven to me by my own weak testing standards: )
I didn't believe it would work, I tried to prove it wrong, and got a 8* reduction in coolant temp/ ambient (2009 CR).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Livers
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2018 - 05:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've always thought that adding oil to gasoline reduced the octane.

True or False?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Shoggin
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2018 - 11:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

IMO it would actually raise the octane?

My thinking is oil burns slower than gas, like how high octane gas burns slower than low octane gas. and should have a higher flash point as well. Thats what resists detonation/ pre-ignition.

are its a hypothetical guess... But an ounce in 4 gallons wouldn't be a measurable difference anyway.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevel
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 01:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Oil has a lower flash point temperature than gasoline, so it will ignite under compression easier than gasoline. In small percentages, it doesn't matter so much, but as the concentration increases in the fuel mix, the fuel will start dieseling in the motor. For clarity, detonation is the collision of two flame fronts. At the point of collision the fuel explodes creating very high pressure peaks and very high temperature. We identify that as knocking, but under severe conditions it will melt pistons and worse. Don't think octane. The octane of the gasoline doesn't change. It is the oil that starts the compression fire. To prove my point place a drop of lube oil in a Daisy BB gun and you will hear the oil diesel when you pull the trigger. If you do the same thing with gasoline, it doesn't ignite.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Livers
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Don't think octane. The octane of the gasoline doesn't change. It is the oil that starts the compression fire."
Thanks for that, it makes sense to me. I'm going to try the B-B thing.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevel
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2018 - 07:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shoggin,
Let me point out that when we speak about burn speed, we are into combustion engineering and that's pretty tricky and complex. In short though, the speed of flame propagation is dependent on the space between fuel particulates. The speed of fuel particulate combustion depends on the size of the particle and any coatings on the particle to deter speed, as in the case of gun propellants (flame exposure). In the case of liquid fuel, it is particulate size, pressure and chamber turbulence. So, because the viscosity of oil is greater than gasoline, we can assume that the particulate size is also larger.

There is a pretty simple rule in piston engines that states that if, at TDC, any fuel not yet burning will in all likely hood, never catch fire and will exit the cylinder unburned. This is where ignition timing becomes important. The more vacuum the engine is running under, the more space exists between each fuel particle, the slower the flame spread becomes and the earlier in the power cycle the spark must occur. The other problem is that modern combustion chambers, like the Rotax motor, is larger than older two valve designs that incorporate a squish chamber, so it takes a lot more time to spread the flame.

(Message edited by steve-l on November 26, 2018)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Panshovevo
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2018 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I made a deal on the S&S 124 powered Dyna I mentioned in one of these threads, and traded my twin cam powered Dyna on it.

Before I did, I put almost 5 gallons of fresh 93 octane fuel (owners manual recommends 91 minimum) in the twin cam with a couple of oz of two stroke oil.

The in-tank electric fuel pump, which has always sounded like a cat whose tail has been stepped on, is now quiet enough I had to put my ear against the tank to hear it run.

(Message edited by Panshovevo on November 26, 2018)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Panshovevo
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2018 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I beg to differ with your description of detonation, Steve.

In simple terms, the fuel/air mixture in a cylinder normally burns at a controlled rate, producing a calculated amount of downward force on the piston, mostly after top dead center. The mixture has to be ignited before TDC for peak pressure to be achieved at the proper crank angle to produce maximum efficiency.

If the mixture is ignited too soon, or if it self-ignites due to a hot spot in the combustion chamber or if the cylinder pressure is excessive (possibly due to excessive loading at low rpms aka lugging), or the anti-knock rating of the fuel is too low for conditions, an explosion of the mixture will take place, resulting in a hammer-like blow to the piston instead of a steady pressure over a number of degrees of crank rotation.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Panshovevo
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2018 - 08:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If oil has a lower flash point temperature than gasoline, why do Diesel engines run much higher compression ratios than spark ignition engines?

If a spark ignition engine drops a valve and breaks a hole in a piston, oil tends to come through the hole and foul the spark plug, resulting in a dead cylinder.

If a compression ignition engine (diesel, particularly two strokes) drops a valve and starts sucking oil into the combustion chamber, you can have a runaway engine which will scream at high rpm until the airflow is blocked, or the oil is exhausted, or it locks up.


Something is missing here.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevel
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2018 - 08:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Pan.....,,
I think you are a bit confused. Detonation is not dieseling. Detonation is the collision of flame fronts. Dieseling is simply self ignition due to compression heating exceeding the fuel's flash point.


Multiple flame fronts can be caused by a whole host of maladies including, pre-ignition (glow plugging, but anything that causes simultaneous ignition at more than one location in the combustion chamber creates the condition to host detonation.

You are correct, diesel engines will very happily consume lube oil as fuel, but they won't run on gasoline because the flash point is higher than the compression heat level. Diesel fuel will also quite happily burn correctly even when very lean. Whereas gasoline requires stoichiometric mixtures. You may note there are no throttle plates used on most diesels. Output power is simply controlled by the amount of fuel injected. Yes, compression ratios are higher than on gasoline engines typically ranging between 15 to 1 to as much as 22 to 1 on two stroke engines. The same rule applies to diesels though. If the fuel is not burning at TDC, it will very likely not get burnt, so ignition timing is controlled by the compression ratio and the closure point of the intake valve. Compression cannot start until the valve is closed. Please also note that on diesel engines, the ignition cavity is in the piston not the cylinder head. This is very important on a diesel because of the slower flame speed of the fuel. The flame space must be reduced as much as possible for fuel efficiency.

You are also correct that the correct ignition timing causes the highest possible cylinder pressure at the most advantageous crankshaft angle, but in order to do that all the fuel induced must be burnt. Once the piston starts its downward travel, the space from fuel particle to fuel particle increases very rapidly to the point that the spreading flame cannot jump that space. I am not saying that the burn must be completed at TDC as the burn does take time, but any fuel particulate not burning at TDC will likely not get burnt.


(Message edited by steve-l on November 27, 2018)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Panshovevo
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2018 - 08:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Iím not going to argue any further...believe what you will.

Except to say that gasoline engines not only donít require stoichiometric mixtures, but they are much happier around 12.7 than at 14.7:1

Also, Diesel engine timing is controlled by when the fuel is injected into the preheated cylinder.



(Message edited by Panshovevo on November 27, 2018)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevel
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2018 - 08:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Pan,
Many years ago Kevin Cameron wrote a very good article on the subject of detonation. I have kept it over the years and I will gladly share it with you. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it to you. It's only about 3 pages. I have it in a word document.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Panshovevo
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2018 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

PM sent, Steve.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nuts4mc
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2018 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

if you search ( the internet) you may find a copy (pdf)of Gordon Jenning's Two stroke Tuner's Handbook...under cylinder head design (about pg 35) he describes detonation, flame fronts and ignition timing...
hth
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Panshovevo
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2018 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here is a link to the information Ron kindly provided.
I havenít had a chance to read Steveís article yet...been sick as a dog all week.
http://www.amrca.com/tech/tuners.pdf
With all the crunching in my lungs, it sounds like pneumonia . (???)

(Message edited by Panshovevo on December 01, 2018)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Panshovevo
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2018 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Turned out I did have pneumonia, been in the hospital since Sunday night. Should have been here sooner...

Hopefully going home this afternoon. It depends on whether we get my blood pressure under control. They stopped some of my meds the night I got here because my pressure was very low, and never restarted them until my BP peaked at a scary level this morning.
Got my fingers crossed!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Skntpig
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2018 - 01:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hang in there Pan. Hereís wishing you a speedy recovery.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Panshovevo
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2018 - 09:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Skntpig.

Steve, I still havenít read what you sent me. A side effect of this malady is a severe headache behind one of my eyes.

However, I would like to ask how your theory of colliding flame fronts accommodates all the dual spark plug engines out there which ignite flame fronts on roughly opposite sides of the cylinder.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevel
Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 07:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Pan,
I knew you were going to ask that question and it is a good one. Read Kevin's treatise when you feel better and pay particular attention to what he says about radical end gas and pressure/temperature exposure time.

Many engines have used duel spark plugs mostly for ignition redundancy like in the case of aircraft recips and Wankel engines. You will find that in those instances the plugs were not fired at the same time. One plug was usually slightly retarded from the other.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Panshovevo
Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 09:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Every reciprocating piston aircraft engine I encountered in my training and field experience had an allowable range of around + - two degrees between the two magnetos. (Each mag fired one set of plugs)

However, the ideal setting according to factory service instructions, was both firing simultaneously.

Same with my dual plug shovelhead.

And speaking of which, itís not unheard of to encounter a dual fire dual plug ignition on a pre- squish band Harley engine.
« Previous Next »

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Password:
E-mail:
Options: Post as "Anonymous" (Valid reason required. Abusers will be exposed. If unsure, ask.)
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Rules | Program Credits Administration