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Panshovevo
Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2018 - 10:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I posted this in the Racing section of the forum, but figured I might as well post here too.

Iím about to have a race exhaust system (purchased from EBR) ceramic coated in order to minimize radiated heat, which heats the fuel in the tank and lines.

Can anyone tell me if there is any measurable difference in the amount of heat radiated between colors of ceramic coatings?

I have a new system which will be going on my CR after I finish installing the big bore kit, and if that goes well, I have another big bore kit that will be going in one of my R models, and the used race exhaust on my latest one will be coated also.

Any intelligent thoughts on the matter will be appreciated.
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Panshovevo
Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2018 - 10:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Additionally, any advice on insulation material for the innner portion of the fuel tank (the side exposed to the exhaust heat) would also be appreciated.

My CR came to me with some insulating material on the right side, that looks like it was precut to fit specific areas. No idea of what it is or where it came from.
The previous owner quit answering texts and emails about five days after I bought the bike, around the time he had promised to deliver the stock exhaust and mirrors...the scumbag.

Had I realized what the stock mirrors sold for, I would have driven back to his house in the Orlando area, and reminded him in person of what he had promised to do.

(Message edited by Panshovevo on October 25, 2018)
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

a dated article, but has some "general info" about colors and temps...

https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/5-Top-Reasons-t o-Ceramic-Coat-your-Exhaust-Headers-and-Turbo-Part s

Swain has been around a long time ( I have used their coatings on piston domes) but as you can see ...they prefer one color:

http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/race-coating-de scriptions/white-lightning-exhaust-coatings/

have some experienced in heat shielding for stationary turbine engines...most of the shielding is silver in color, but if you look at F1/Indycars...it looks like "gold" is the new color...

Amazon has it available in different sizes, supplied by Design Engineering:

https://www.amazon.com/Design-Engineering-010392-H igh-Temperature-Reflective/dp/B0039Z5TRC/ref=sr_1_ 7?ie=UTF8&qid=1540574014&sr=8-7&keywords=adhesive+ heat+barrier&dpID=41eP7uez7PL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&d pSrc=srch

If you do the frame, might also consider the airbox

hth
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Panshovevo
Posted on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Ron, that helps a lot.
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 02:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you read some of the reviews on the Amazon site...the foil's adhesive tends to be the "weak" link" in product application/durability...some have "pre-treated" the surface with 3M 77 adhesive spray...

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-prod ucts/~/3M-Super-77-Multipurpose-Spray-Adhesive/?N= 5002385+3293242460&rt=rud

may be available at the local Home Depot or auto parts store...
hth
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Ceejay
Posted on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

In my experience the heat sheilding does little to nothing. Iíve got ceramic coated headers, heat sheilding from thermotec, ebr Rotor stator combo, upgraded v/r and a race ecm. My fuel still boils, about every time itís ridden at 80 F or higher.
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Willmrx
Posted on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 08:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ceejay. You are not riding fast enough to dissipate the heat!
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Shoggin
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 12:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not to go too sideways on this thread... but...; )

When I was riding my CR in Florida and doing track days at PBIR during the summer, I tried every measure of heat insulation I could think of.
Out of the (seriously) 20 things I tried only 2 made a measurable difference and one sounded way better.

1) Dynamat underhood heat shield. I don't know if the brand matters, but I used a TON of it and it seemed that using it on the the top and bottom edges of the frame/tank made more of a difference than on the inside next to the engine? Along with tech spec outer grips I got -20 degree average at the same spots of the tank and MUCH happier inner thighs. No more raw fuel spitting out the overflow, but I could still see vapors.

2) 2-stroke oil. Oh lord I can't believe I'm admitting this... I experimented with 1-2oz of 2-stroke oil (full tank) and consistently saw 8(!!) degrees lower coolant temp at the same ambient. Repeatable and consistent.

The third is a bit more subjective, but instead of blindly putting in 20w-50 v-twin in all the time... the Buell manual stated to use straight 50w for the temps I was riding. After draining that hot oil (that was thinner than water), I changed to straight 60w. for the summer. The result was the normally clacky, loud rattly engine was very, very, much quieter. I wouldn't recommend it in cooler temps, read the manual.
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Stevel
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 03:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shoggin is correct in his observations. The heating of the fuel tank/frame is primarily due to the waste heat from the radiators not the exhaust. I find his comment of the use of 2-stroke oil intriguing. I certainly don't discount this, but without knowing more, I can't explain it.
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 10:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

two stroke oil and gas in your 4 stroke:

old school mechanics used to add "Marvel Mystery Oil" to the gas to "lubricate the top end"???? (valves and valve guides need love too)...there is a lot of horror pictures of 1125 pistons with valve impressions...could it be that the valves and guides just don't get along?

My two stroke roots...Jennings, Shillings, Neilson (Cycle) used to preach make the fuel mix "rich" by adding oil to the ratio...helping rings seal and pistons slippery...but oh the problems of early ignition systems and fouled plugs...not to mention how lean can you run that engine before detonation sets in???

this old man's (WASG) theory...
Today's gas has alcohol in it which is mixable (miscible) with water...the two stroke oil mixes well with the alcohol (and water) making it easier to ignite and lowers the temperature during combustion....yes I run a little two stroke oil in my tank, but not every fill up...does it help?... not sure

(Message edited by nuts4mc on October 27, 2018)
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Stimbrell
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Back in the day many used to add two stroke oil to the tank but beware, by adding this you are effectively leaning the fuel air mixture, those who went too far ended up seizing the top end rather than lubricating it, if you want to add oil to your fuel you should add fuel in the tables to compensate. Personally I would not do this but ymmv.
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Shoggin
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here's my thought process of why I feel 2-stroke oil is safe. Ignoring the repeatable positive result and any theories of what-my-buddy-told-me's : )

1oz of something in a full Buell tank is just about 0.2%.

For comparison, 10% Ethanol gas (typically tested a 20%+ already, and now authorized MORE up to 15% to save the farmers..: (.but I digress) that's almost 80 oz/tank!! More than a 2 liter bottle! of low BTU junk that Buells swallow every tankful with no problem. We're talking running, not fuel hose destruction.

Buell's (since about 2001) are fuel injected and even stock settings can compensate between 50% and 150% of total global fuel mapping. No need to mess with mapping by adding 0.2% of anything slightly flammable to your tank.

2-stroke oil is designed to be burned. I have no idea if Marvel Mystery oil is?

With no other changes, I would run 3 tanks with, and 3 tanks without, then did a blind test because I'm a curious dork and had my friend either add it (or not) so I wouldn't know to verify my subjective findings on the CR.

Besides the coolant was 8 degrees lower, the fuel pump got so quiet I could barely hear it prime, smoother idle (relative to Buells haha), and a 'smoother' exhaust note even through a Keda pipe.

I never did dyno testing or had any issue with sensors, injectors, filters, or anything. Just like Tapatio, I'll put it in everything!

Any argument will be taken to the extreme (especially on the internet haha). I guess we could start a whole new thread on the 2-stroke oil thing? I love to hear any factual stats if someone has done legitimate testing? You guys always impress: )
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Marketleader
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you're gonna add 2-stroke oil, you should probably use TC-W3. There is a thread not specific to bikes at bobistheoilguy.com https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.p hp/topics/1429603/1
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Panshovevo
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks to everyone who took off and ran with this thread. Iíd love to hear more if there is any.

Iíve been a fan of Marvel Mystery oil for many years, and have frequently added small quantities to the fuel in my air-cooled bikes. Using two stroke oil never occurred to me for some reason.

One thing to keep in mind when adding oil to your fuel is that you are reducing the anti-knock rating of the fuel.

I have considered adding a product that Lycoming puts in 4 oz bottles and sells for a ridiculous price, that can be bought by the gallon for not much more.

Lycoming mandates itís use in the oil of some engines to prevent scuffing, but the same product is added to fuel to help scavenge the lead out of low compression engines.

I have a Harley 80Ē shovel head that I made a calculation error when cutting the cylinders and heads to close the fire ring gap and raise the compression.
I was aiming for 10.5:1 compression, and wound up around 11:1. Most pump gas is okay, but if Iím taking a road trip, I carry a gallon of toluene in a saddlebag to boost the octane when I get a tank full of crap gas. Two stroke oil would probably help add some needed lubricity to the mixture.
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Stevel
Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2018 - 03:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The reason I did not respond to this oil thing was that I did not have enough info. Oil generally has a lower flash point than gasoline and can cause serious and damaging detonation, but not all oil has the same flash point. So, without knowing what the 2 stroke oil is exactly, no one can say what is happening.

Yes, toluene does raise the fuel flash point, but it's pretty expensive to use.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2018 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is certainly interesting. Adding 2-stroke oil may lower operating temps and lubricate the top end? Seems like a worthwhile thing as long as there is no collateral damage....

I wonder if those running the Race ECM would be in a better spot to do such a thing as it provides a richer mixture....Thoughts?
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2018 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

a blog entry on the subject of two stroke oil in a 4 stroke...author uses a 4 stroke MX as his test bed...

https://inspirationmomentsblog.wordpress.com/2015/ 12/27/2-stroke-oil-in-a-4-stroke-motorcycle/

claims 1oz to 1 gal is a "sweet spot" (128:1)

hth
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Monday, October 29, 2018 - 09:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

He also says that it might foul or disrupt the Oxygen sensors?

Does anyone know how the race ECM interacts with the Oxygen sensors? Are they even used with the Race ECM?
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Stevel
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 02:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The normal ECM transitions between open and closed loop operation. This includes those ECMs labeled race only with special tunes for after market exhaust systems. The REAL Race ECMs, the ones that come with the special software that allows the tuner to change almost everything, those operate in open loop only. The normal ECM and closed loop operation uses narrow band O2 sensors. These are switching on/off as the engine operates about stoichiometric operation (A/R 14.7 to 1). The real race ECM running in open loop only does not need O2 sensors at all. O2 sensors are used, but they would be wide-band (analog) and used by data loggers not the ECM. Oil, tetraethyl lead and many other fuel additives will damage all O2 sensors over time, as these additives will coat the sensors with an ash, like lead bromide.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good info, Steve. Do you know if the O2 sensor gets fouled (with EBR Race ECM, not real race ECM) will it throw a trouble code/check engine light?
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Panshovevo
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A bike I bought recently has an EBR true Race Only ECM that is driving me batshit crazy!
I cannot get the module to respond to my computer!

I could probably sort it out pretty quickly with a phone call to Tim at IDS, who even sent me his cell phone number, but when someone is that willing to be helpful, I do my best to avoid calling them if I can avoid it, especially when I didnít buy the product from them.

(Message edited by Panshovevo on October 30, 2018)
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Stevel
Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 03:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Harlan,
That's actually a good question. The answer is maybe. The ECU will throw a code if it detects the signal out of range. That would probably be a short or open circuit only. Contamination would most likely not be detected by the ECU.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 03:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Maybe a better plan of attack is check the the O2 sensor value prior to "oil treatment" (assuming it's "normal" now) and see if they fluctuate over time if adding oil to the gasoline?

IDK. 1:128 ratio is 4-5 ounces per fill up is way more than what Shoggin is saying at 1 ounce per tank.

I suppose a tank or two wouldn't hurt anything to see if she feels any different. If the O2 sensors go, they are replaceable....
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Shoggin
Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Correct. 1oz or so is 0.2%.
There won't be any fouling or ash or tuning, or gremlins...

K.I.S.S.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2018 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

Correct. 1oz or so is 0.2%.
There won't be any fouling or ash or tuning, or gremlins...




Just to clarify from your earlier post. You have done 1oz per tank and have had measurable positive results? Do you add 1 oz every tank now or did you just test this out for a few tanks?
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Shoggin
Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2018 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It made the biggest difference on the CR in Florida summer (the reason the OP posted) but yes:

1-2oz almost every tank. There are times it's not convenient or I'm lazy but after a few 'dry' tanks I am reminded to keep doing it. An extra valve train rattle or loud fuel pump prime or something will remind me without even thinking about it.

I don't subscribe to "more is better" and I don't go for old-wives-tales either. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but with my very, very, unscientific testing, this little trick has proven itself to me time and time again.

YMMV.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well, I am taking the plunge. I ordered a gallon of semi-syn TC-W3 as well as some 8oz graduated plastic bottles to keep one in the tailbag.

If it could help with the drive train rattle, I would be happy. I know it's "normal" for our bikes but it's so bad sometimes I think I'm short of motor oil....I'm kind of excited to try this.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2018 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So I went for my first ride with a little more than an ounce in nearly a full tank of gas. I would have to say the results are inconclusive. No real surprise I guess.

I ride the same loop 90% of the time these days, but the ambient temperature on Sunday (with mixed gas) was quite a bit lower than it has been all year (appx 64 degrees.) That being said, I ran at about 180 degrees on the uphill portion of the ride. Usually I would see about 199-200 degrees on these portion, but the lower ambient temperature obviously had something to do with the much lower engine temperature. However, I cannot remember ever seeing this low of a temperature (180 degrees) as it's uphill and I usually really take advantage with lots of throttle.

One the boring slab ride home, I was seeing as low as 167 degrees, which is where I think the thermostat closes.

I think engine temperature is the most quantifiable measure of this mixed gas experiment, but I could have done alot better with my "testing".

Noise is pretty subjective. If I had to make a statement about it, I would say valvetrain noise was a bit less.

(Message edited by fresnobuell on November 05, 2018)
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Panshovevo
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2018 - 08:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think I still have a gallon or two of TC-W3 kicking around from my outboard days. Itís still pretty damn hot in South Florida, I might give it a try.

The bike Iím riding on the street currently doesnít use O2 sensors, so definitely no worries there.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2018 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I run a Gopro on the side pod. I compared some video sound of the bike from before and after I added the TC-W3. Believe or not, it sounds like there is less valve train clatter post TC-W3. When I get some time, I will upload to YouTube so you guys can listen for yourselves.
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Skntpig
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2018 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry to derail...but how about PBIR Dec 9th Shoggin?
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2018 - 02:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I created another thread for the 2-cycle oil in the fuel....figured it deserve it.
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Shoggin
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2018 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sknpig, I'd love to, but I moved to the west coast a couple years ago: )
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