G oog le Buell 1125R Forum | Login/out | Topics | Search | Custodians | Register | Edit Profile


Buell Forum » 1125R Superbike Board » Stator/Voltage Regulator/Charging System subforum » Random Stator questions from a noob « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Javaman21011
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 07:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've been reading the forums here and am starting down the curious rabbit hole of stator knowledge. That said I had a few questions/comments/ideas. Be warned, I am a total noob when it comes to electronics and engines!

So from what I can gather the original stators had a problem with overheating, whether that be a problem in the stator's design or the other components meant to cool it down.

Fixes for this seem to include 2 or 3 variants:
1) The Harley 'fix' without changing the rotor.
This seems to result in the stator being put under less load (some of the arms/leaves/whatever are disabled so that it doesn't heat up as fast), but has the side effect of lowering the overall voltage and causing batteries to die on long trips. About this someone said (opens 1 of the 3 stator legs when the bike is sitting still and the load is light. The ECM controls it.) I assume this is the case because while riding there is more airflow that cools the bike down, whereas at idle the engine heats up more?

2) Drill the rotor
This seems to inject oil from the crankcase into the stator compartment to use the cooler oil to keep the stator in satisfactory condition.

3) Use a different voltage regulator rectifier
I've seen some posts where people install a different regulator rectifier (not even sure what this is).

So if I want to ensure my bike is happy for years to come, should I go down this rabbit hole? When I first bought it the stator died and I assume they installed the Harley fix, but I am not certain. I am going to call Harley and get the old repair records to see what they did exactly. If I can't find the records then I am curious what to do next...

Questions:
a) Is there any way to tell what state my stator is in without digging into the engine?
b) What does the Harley 'fix' do? It seems just to be some wires that talks to the ECM? (http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/769494.html?1441720157) Seems like the end result might be an overall loss of voltage and possible battery drain?
c) What does a normal voltage at idle look like on the control panel with the various varient things that is done to it? Like what does the V look like with the Harley fix and one without? (this helped http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/738962.html?1400282130)
d) Is it dangerous to be at 14V or above? Is it good/bad to be between 12-13 or 13-14? (Though this thread seems to handle that question (http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/767298.html?1465768856))
e) I hear people talking about installing regulators, like here (http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/768574.html?1440617742), why is that? Does the 1125CR already come with a regulator? Is it just one?
f) Have you heard of situations where there was a mix of parts? Like is it possible to not have the Harley fix, but have a drilled rotor? What if you have the drilled rotor but also have the fix? How dangerous is it to have neither the fix nor the drilled rotor?
g) Is it wise to replace the stock regulator? How would I know if it's damaged or needs replacing?
h) How does a VR differ from a rectifier? Are they the same concept or is the rectifier an extra part that works in tandem with the VR?

In the end, should I just do what this chap did? (http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/790201.html?1473180856)
"stator upgrade, removed HD fix, and a modified Rick's Voltage rectifier/regulator."

If I want to do all that, will EBR sell me a new rotor or do I have to see if I can ship mine to them (assuming they dont go under before then)?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Imblasted
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 09:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

a) Is there any way to tell what state my stator is in without digging into the engine?
you can test the stator legs while idling to see what A/C voltage they are putting out. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/643580.html?1400722056

b) What does the Harley 'fix' do? It seems just to be some wires that talks to the ECM? (http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/769494.html?1441720157) Seems like the end result might be an overall loss of voltage and possible battery drain?
if you have a non stock stator you can remove the Harley "fix" (aka bandaid). http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/709261.html?1380371362

c) What does a normal voltage at idle look like on the control panel with the various varient things that is done to it? Like what does the V look like with the Harley fix and one without? (this helped http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/738962.html?1400282130)
I have a Rick's USA stator and a SH847AA voltage regulator (which is used in the 2014 Vstrom DL1000) My voltage stays around ~14.4v while at operating temps with the fans running and rpm's above 2000. When at stand still with fans running at idle voltage drops to ~13.6v. I never paid attention to my voltage before my stator sh!t the bed after my 5 hour ride up to Dayton Bike week with the wife on the back of the CR, leaving us stranded in Dayton.

d) Is it dangerous to be at 14V or above? Is it good/bad to be between 12-13 or 13-14? (Though this thread seems to handle that question (http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/767298.html?1465768856))
Charging at 14.4v is ideal.

e) I hear people talking about installing regulators, like here (http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/768574.html?1440617742), why is that? Does the 1125CR already come with a regulator? Is it just one?
it does have a regulator (it changes the A/C from the stator into D/C which is what the battery needs)

f) Have you heard of situations where there was a mix of parts? Like is it possible to not have the Harley fix, but have a drilled rotor? What if you have the drilled rotor but also have the fix? How dangerous is it to have neither the fix nor the drilled rotor?
you could possibly have any mix of the parts. if it was only fixed at Harley you probably have the Harley "Fix" and the stock rotor and stock stator. But you won't know without taking it apart, and I wouldn't do that unless something is broke. (don't fix it if it aint broke) Its not dangerous to have the bike completely stock, but eventually (most likely) you will have to replace the stator, if it is a stock rotor. When you replace the stator also replace the rotor with the drilled EBR rotor (I hope you can still get one!).

g) Is it wise to replace the stock regulator? How would I know if it's damaged or needs replacing?
if the bike is charging and keeping a consistent voltage, your VR is fine. You could replace it with a fancy VR but you don't need to. The reason you would switch to a non-shunt type regulator would be to make stator run cooler.

h) How does a VR differ from a rectifier? Are they the same concept or is the rectifier an extra part that works in tandem with the VR?}
A rectifier is built into a Voltage Regulator, if the VR is not controlled by a computer. (thats my understanding, probably wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me.)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nuts4mc
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

wow...it looks like you have learned to use the google search at the top of the page....good for you!
a) 08s have lower output stators, can get by with out a drilled rotor
a+) 09s have increased output from their stators...if you have an 09 you're gonna need a drilled rotor (and possibly a new stator)
b)the harley fix removes a "phase or leg or output line" from one of the (3) phases that the stator is designed to have...the Harley fix is a good idea but poorly executed...the removal of one phase from charging allows the stator to run cooler...but the fix uses a cheap relay to control the on/off of that phase..yes the charging voltage drops and puts a drain on the battery...but it saves the stator ( when the relay works)
c) the post you have referenced answers the question... 14.2v - 12.9v is my experience with a 2008 with a a aftermarket Voltage regulator.
d) The age/state of the battery and those items on the bike ( fans !!) will cause the voltage to fluctuate...a new battery with no load should be over 12VDC ( buy a digital volt meter ( $30 at Walmart) if you want to learn how to trouble shoot)the links to the posts should answer your question.
e) The VR is made by Ducati...it uses the sub frame as a heatsink...I have read once where a rider moving their leg away from the tiny "air scoop" saw voltage increase on the IC...bottom line the VR works...it is not mounted in a position to receive cooling air...to add to it's issues the bike runs hot and an exhaust pipe is near it's mounting....life expectancy is minimal
f) yes mixed parts are possibly but it adds complexity to the system and decreases the reliability...A 2008 model can run without a drilled rotor, but I would suggest a new VR mounted in a air flow...if you have a 2009- go to post where the "shop" installed a drilled rotor Rick's stator and VR and removes the HD fix.
g) yes replace the stock VR and mount the replacement in an air stream...if after the bike is warmed up and you use your meter to measure the output of the VR and it is under 12VDC or way over 14.2VDC...you have a bad VR
h) The "VR" is in reality a "VRR" ( voltage regulator and rectifier) engineers are lazy and why use two "Rs" when one will do.
the stator in the bike makes AC ( alternating current like from the wall socket in your house)...it must be rectified to DC direct current to charge the battery...as the bike engine spins faster the voltage increases and the rectified voltage must be regulated so as not to over charge the battery , or worse burn up the wiring harness...the excess "power" gets turned into haet energy...that's why the VR has heatsink "fins"

EBR has closed it doors for a second time...suggest you use you google skills to learn about the R&R of the rotor and find a machine shop to drill a hole (EDM) (if you have an'09)
here's a link to a source for a stator:
https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/l/buell-stato r

here's a link to a source for a Voltage regulator/rectifier:
http://www.roadstercycle.com/Roadstercycle%20Serie s%20Regulators.htm

strongly suggest you learn how to solder...if not find a good bike shop or auto electric shop to help you install the electrical components.

hth

(Message edited by nuts4mc on February 01, 2017)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 08:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good summary before asking your questions, awesome!

I'll add a couple more things...

"Drilling the rotor" is a term we know what it means, but we should be careful when we use it. It is really "machining a hole in the rotor", because the size of the hole impacts the oil pressure on other critical parts of the motor, and the location and shape of the hole is presumably fairly important. That is the right fix though.

The VR (Voltage Regulator) is, as stated, both a rectifier and voltage regulator.

The rectifier part takes the various alternating current (every engine rotation produces a smooth positive then smooth negative voltage in the shape of a sine wave on each leg / phase) into direct current (converts those positive and negative waves into just positive waves at twice the frequency).

The regulator part takes that positive wave and makes sure it never goes above what the battery should be seeing to be charged (which can be as high as 14.4 without necessarily being a problem).

Here is where things start getting interesting. Unlike a car, which actually uses the battery to create an electromagnet that the alternator coils move through, the Buell (and many motorcycles) just have permanent magnets that the coils move through.

This is simpler, and allows the motor to bump start with no battery at all (a car alternator can't, it needs some battery to bootstrap the whole process). But it has the disadvantage that the amount of electrical power the system could generate is fixed for any particular RPM. Not actually that big a problem, because we can use electrical tricks to make less power, but it does limit the peak power available at low RPM's. Not your problem here though.

Next is the regulator. The stock regulator on an HD is, as stated, not computer controlled, but it is a pretty sophisticated analog circuit that does some clever things to try and get the battery what it needs when it needs it. But the stock regulator is also a shunt regulator, meaning that it demands as much power as the stator can produce all the time, regardless of it needs it or not.

It says "give me all power you can make", and sends as much to the battery as it needs, but when the battery is taking as much as it can, the regulator throws the rest of the power in the trash (shunting to ground).

It doesn't have to be that way. Electrically, the regulator could say "give me this percent of your available power only". They do the shunt because it used to be cheaper when only things like Silicone Controlled Rectifiers were common and a available for handling high current loads (I can go through the math of why if you like, but that's another whole lesson).

This was generally fine. It "wasted" some fraction of a horsepower at most, so you never felt it as a power loss, even on small bikes. And while the stator was going full power all the time, it's running in a big oil bath on a motor that is hot, but well below the temperature where the windings or insulation is likely to fail. So it was easy and it worked.

On some 1125's, something went wrong with the design or the materials or both, and there were "hot spots" on the stator coils. This caused chronic stator failures, and those things were pricey, so that was a crises.

That takes you up to where you started in your nice summary above. The first Harley fix would recognize the situations where they knew the stator coils were in jeopardy (I think low to medium RPM's where the cooling from oil circulation didn't match the heat being generated) and it, under those conditions only, disconnected part of the stator so it wasn't making power (and generating internal heat).

Ironically, I think bikes that were ridden hard never had the problems, because high RPM made more heat, but made even more coooling due to even more oil circulation, so it was fine.

It kind of worked I think, but it was a hack. They used relays, which are cheap and reliable but pretty dumb and have a finite life span. And while normal riding didn't put you in the "problem zone" that often, so you never noticed that your battery may be getting a little starved, if you did happen to be in a situation where you spent time there, you could suddenly find yourself with a dead battery. And it probably wasn't good for the battery anyway.

Replacing the shunt regulator with a series regulator (more expensive and connected differently) helps because the bike is only demanding as much stator power (with it's waste heat) as the bike needs. But with a failing battery you could be right back in the "death to stator" scenario before you know it.

So the real solution is to make the right hole in the magnet rotor so that the pressurized oil passage coming out of the crank will be sprayed onto the stator, including during the "problem scenarios", and that oil bath will keep it within safer operating temperature ranges. But not too big a hole, or your internal motor bearings won't have oil of a sufficient pressure.

The original machining from EBR used electro discharge machining to make an insanely precise small hole. Which is no doubt the best way to do it at scale.

For one off, would it be practical to make the hole using other methods? Beats me, I'm an EE. Go ask an ME. I break drill bits like they blow transistors. : )
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dannybuell
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 09:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Javaman21011 - good question!

Imblasted - best response in YEARS...

Nuts4mc - excellent guidance...

Reepicheep - thoughtful presentation in
laymans terms. "I'm an EE. Go ask an ME. I break drill bits like they blow transistors." LOL :-)

BOOKMARKED As '1125 Electrical Summary'
This site IS so collaborative, priceless...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nuts4mc
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 10:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

hey...I like transistors - so much better than vacuum tubes.
Drilling holes is like having intercourse...gotta watch the speeds and feeds...and lubrication helps of course!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Javaman21011
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wow, that's awesome guys (and fast). I am calling HD as we speak and trying to figure out what they did to my bike, but it's an 09' and its stator died the first few weeks, luckily fixed under warranty. Assuming they did the Harley fix, do you recommend I try to source the parts and/or find someone to make this mod before anything bad happens?

Also I read that EBR is shutting down production, but is keeping warranty/parts going. Course there's no guarantee of that either so I may try to source the rotor and keep it handy.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Froggy
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I recommend getting the EBR modified rotor cup, as that will take care of the issue for good. If your stator is still brand new, there is no better time to swap the rotor.

http://www.erikbuellracing.net/store/models/1125r/ 2009-2010-charging-system-rotor-modification.html
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Javaman21011
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Froggy! I should find the # of the previous local Buell tech and see if he's still taking requests.... course it might be fun to learn more about how the bike works. Course I'd need to source a crankshaft locking tool and a huge nut, right? Other than that it's just elbow grease? Though... what is a SPRAG BEARING ?

(Message edited by javaman21011 on February 02, 2017)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Javaman21011
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Another good link about the steps involved: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/718500.html?1465510675
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jc1125r
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 09:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sprag Clutch is shown here

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/769347.html
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Javaman21011
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2017 - 12:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I ran it tonight for 5-10 mins and it started up fine, voltage was at 14, turned on the high beams for a min and it went down to 13.7 or so but slowly went up to 13.9. turned em off and it hovered there. Meanwhile the fans were on as the CT got up to 180. Could it be because the outside temp was 48? Does all that sound normal or worth upgrading?
« Previous Next »

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Password:
E-mail:
Options: Post as "Anonymous" (Valid reason required. Abusers will be exposed. If unsure, ask.)
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Rules | Program Credits Administration