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Archive through February 04, 2017Joe7bros30 02-04-17  02:33 pm
         

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Trackracer
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Once started and running the battery will show 14.xx volts and remain there. Although the battery may be the contributing factor to the hard cold start, do you think that would be the cause of the stalling as shown in the video?

(Message edited by trackracer on February 04, 2017)
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Joe7bros
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is confusing. In the video, the bike fires right up, but then cuts out. Is it still doing that? Your last post implies the bike now stays running. Is the charging system putting out 14+ volts at idle? There is a post on the site detailing how to test each phase of the stator with the bike not running as well as running; have you done that? Another thing to keep in mind is that with all the electronics, anything below 10 volts is insufficient to keep the bike running. I wonder if a short in the stator would cause the bike to shut down?
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Trackracer
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@joe7bros the problem I'm chasing is the cutting out, we've gotten side tracked a bit here. It only cuts out when engine Temps are cold, once the bike is warmed up/running for a minute it will not do that again. With that, the hard cold start doesn't help, throttle needs to be given to get it to start after it cuts out. Runs extremely rich when cold also.
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Trackracer
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Also, the battery is only dipping to 10v while trying to start on a cold start. Again once bike is running at normal operating temp, fires right up with a drop to about 12v from 13.5-14v
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Two_seasons
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

TR, batteries make modern electronics unstable if not fully charged.

Random thoughts...
o All things new doesn't mean all things work when removed from the box.
o Have you checked your battery connections? They should be tight.
o Are you absolutely sure about your ECM having a good REMUS map? IDS could check it/fix it if not.
o Bad O2 sensor

Carry on

(Message edited by two_seasons on February 04, 2017)
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Trackracer
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Battery Connections are solid.
Ecm is from EBR , one would guess it has a good map?
I don't believe an 02 sensor would cause a stall on a start? Run roughly seems to be an effect of a faulty 02 in my experiences.

For the battery, it will only dip down when trying to cold start the bike. Once running, i can turn the bike off/on without any issues time and time again.

I did hook up the stock ecu and that didn't net any change.
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S21125r
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Intake Air Temperature Sensor? Or Engine Temperature Sensor maybe? Don't know what the specs are but I think they are thermistors that you can check with a DVM.
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Redman1125r
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry if I'm out of place here but from your posts...

Hard to cold start
Misfiring when cold
Rich when cold
Sounds like your map is off at low revs, too rich, plugs worn? If your plugs have plenty of time on them they could have large gaps leading to misses when cold and rich.
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Trackracer
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry for the delayed update. Busy getting the race bikes ready. The battery does not get fully charged and drains quickly. Ill buy a new one tomrrow and report back.
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Trackracer
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@redman, it doesn't misfire, watch the video i linked. The hard cold start i feel is due to the weak battery,ill have new one installed shortly. The initial cold start/random stall once running is the issue I'm looking for insight on. New plugs and iacv
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Trackracer
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

New battery did not change anything. Just longer cranks while starting. Still needs a bit of throttle to cold start it (45 degrees) will idle high like normal when cold once started, but then shut off within seconds as if something is choking it.
I'm at a loss. Once it runs for a minute or so the symptoms cannot be repeated until the next complete cold start.
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Colintornado
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As s21125r said,I would check inlet air temp sensor and engine temp sensor resistances are correct.
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Trackracer
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Does anyone happen to have the specs for the inlet air temp and engine temp sensors?
Based on the display, they seem to be right. Can't hurt checking though.
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Colintornado
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

33,761 ohms to 74,328 ohms at 68f to 80f. (20c to 30c) Same for both sensors.PS I guess the iat is in its correct place.
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Trackracer
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

65 degrees here yesterday instead of the normal 30 degrees. Buell starts right up like normal, didn't smell too rich but does stall as its been doing on start up.
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Two_seasons
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Looked at video for first time.

What is your fuel pressure at startup?

Sounds like it quits because of fuel starvation.

ECM gives extra squirt (rich) at cold startup.
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Trackracer
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 05:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@two seasons , what is the common method for checking fuel pressure on these?
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Stevel
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 06:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Two Seasons, the ECM does not give an extra squirt at cold start-up. The ECM controls the pressure of the fuel pump motor speed by PWM (pulse width modulation). The amount of fuel injected depends on two factors, injector pulse width and supply fuel pressure. Feedback to the ECM is provided by the fuel pressure sensor. This can be read by the console display in diagnostic mode. (See user manual)

Trackracer,
Excellent question. The best way is to put a tee fitting at the fuel pump and use a pressure gauge and watch that, but most just use the console. However, since the console reflects the output of the pressure sensor and the interpretation of that voltage by the ECU, there is always the question of what is real. The question in a case like this is there a real pressure fault or is the problem an interpretation problem and as long as you are using the same system as a test vehicle, the results are uncertain. That is why a separate fuel pressure gauge is a better bet.
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Trackracer
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fuel pressure before startup is 515kpa, once started it'll hold between 400-418 kpa. This is from the gauge cluster.

Also here are a few other readings at idle
Front 02 voltage .1-.9
Rear 02 voltage .0-.7
F adapt 100.00
R adapt 100.00
Coolant volt 1.5
Iac steps 76-80
Map kpa 38-42
Map volt 2.3-2.6
At 104
Ct 163
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Two_seasons
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry for the poor info I offered up. I guess I was thinking enrichener as in carb'd bikes.

Does the clutch switch change the PWM?
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Trackracer
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What do you mean by pwm? I disconnected the clutch switch to see if that changed anything and it didn't.
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Colintornado
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Another test you can do,even if just to eliminate is.........
Injector leak check:

With the motor cold, and air cleaner removed, open throttle and check with a light to make sure there is no raw fuel laying in the intake tract, or anywhere in sight.

Close the throttle.

Turn the key on for two seconds, then back off, 5 consecutive times.

Open the throttle and look again for any raw fuel in the intake.
Any evidence of raw fuel indicates a leaky injector which should be replaced (assuming there was none when you started the test). (copied from a previous post.)
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Stevel
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 03:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Trackracer,
PWM is a common method of limiting the speed of a motor by controlling its duty cycle, on verses off time. The advantage of this method, as opposed to reducing applied voltage, is that motor torque is not reduced when the speed is reduced. In this manner, the ECM can control the fuel pump speed and its output pressure.
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Pwillikers
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

PWM = pulse width modulation
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Joe7bros
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Silly question: In the past, you mentioned a strong odor of gas; is the tank properly vented?
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Trackracer
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@joe7bros , it's not raw fuel, it's a rich mixture being burnt. While the bike runs it's extremely rich while cold. I will dig into it this weekend. I rode it today for the 1st time, it runs great other than the cold start up.
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Two_seasons
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Trackracer:
When you installed new plugs, was the engine rotated? I worry that changing the plugs without rotation could damage the coil.
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Joe7bros
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My thought was that if the tank is not vented properly, there's excess pressure, maybe, forcing fuel into the intake at shutoff, thus causing the overly rich cold start. Have you tried starting it with the gas cap off?
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Colintornado
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Over rich at cold start is the reason I have suggested checking for injector leakage or out of calibration temp sensors,especially as the run data appears normal.
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Trackracer
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@two seasons i only did the plugs while i had everything apart. This problem was there before hand. It is not misfiring while running either.

I have also been in talks with buell themselves. Ive included the video with them also.
They're thoughts are either the iac (been replaced) leaky injector, pinched or unhooked vacuum line. Loose connection on coil (no misfire present though?)
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Trackracer
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Alright so i got a chance to look at the bike again.

I checked for any sign of a vacuum leak. Followed hoses and everything seems to be nice and solid. No pinches etc.

Did the injector leak test. The intake tubes that the injectors mount to are quite dirty as if fluid has caused a build up. Although the test doesn't show any sign of leakage. I did click the starter with the throttle bodies off and the front injector seems to have a much wider/prevalent spray than the rear injector. Is that normal?

Swapped iac's as i have 2 used ones and a new one. Those don't seem to make a difference between any of them.

(Message edited by trackracer on March 05, 2017)
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Colintornado
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The part no for the pair of injectors is the same,(08 type are different to 09 type) You could swop front and rear injectors and see if the difference you see follows.
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Colintornado
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 05:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

PS, the spray pattern is the difference between 08 and 09 as far as I am aware.
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