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Buell Forum » 1125R Superbike Board » Hiccups between 3,600and 4,400 RPM « Previous Next »

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Cbxmike
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2016 - 01:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is the second 1125CR I have owned and the third Buell for me. Awesome machines. I recently picked up an 1125CR with a Sep08 build date that only has 900 miles on it. Garaged kept, truly showroom condition. It would not start. No fuel pump sound with ignition on. Fuel pump removed and cleaned. All fuel drained. Fuel pump came to life immersed in mineral spirit bath. Ran strong. Good Fuel pressure now both off and running after re-installed. Replaced the Rotor with the EBR reworked unit. Stator looked good. New "series" voltage regulator. Brand new battery. Bike fired right up. Perfect voltage, fresh battery. Out on the road, bike stalls and hesitates in a chopping fashion intermittently between 3,600-4,400rpms. Momentary loss of power like loss of fuel or ignition. No change in voltage during the event. Awesome power and feel anywhere else. Ran multiple times up to 100mph with no issues. Pulled hard and strong. Just hates running in the above rpm range. Even when accelerating through it. Smooth above and below trouble range. Pulled air filter and plenum cover and inspected TB,s for anything that could have come loose. All is as new.

Should I suspect a dead spot on the TPS? I did the factory TPS reset per the manual. No change. Is it possible that since this bike has so few miles and never to the shop for anything, the problem could be from the stock ecm flash? I've read about earlier surging issues cleared up through a newer flash? I'm really at an impasse on this and just hoping someone has had a similar problem? It is not ridable in current state since cruising around is mainly in the above stated rpm range. Original owner never complained of this symptom during its first 900 miles.

Mike
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2016 - 10:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mike...this may help:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/745758.html?1412213667

has the bike been de-noided?
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/490767.html

I would suspect fuel pressure/clogged injectors...have you tried some Heavy Duty fuel system cleaner:
https://seafoamsales.com/sea-foam-motor-treatment/

hth...Happy Thanksgiving
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Stimbrell
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2016 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Being optimistic, when my bike was new it did this during the first 1000 miles or so as the open loop system learned and adjusted the fuel settings, hopefully yours is just doing the same. The more miles I did the better it got, the EBR race ecm was a better solution however.
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Cbxmike
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2016 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks guys for the suggestions. It is technically a brand new bike. It sat for years and the ecm probably needs the latest updates. I have not de-noided it yet. It does kinda act like the solenoid gets a momentary signal to close the butterflies in that rpm range. Just for a second. I'll try that first then try to upload the latest ecm for stock bike using a Buelltooth connection I just ordered. If neither of those fixes it, then I may try a new TPS.

I have some sea foam mixed in with fresh gas. Oddly, I don't suspect the fuel pump since the bike runs strong above and below the 3,600-4,400 troubled range. I can't imagine any fuel injected bike pulling hard and strong at 100mph with a bad fuel pump. Possible I guess.
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Zac4mac
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2016 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a similar issue with a customer's bike.
Runs like a raped ape except at 2500-3000rpm.
Sputters and pops until 3000 then fine again.

Not as severe in 1st gear but the rest are hard to deal with.

I'm watching
Z
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Nikoff90
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2016 - 07:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Clean the backside of the throttle body butterflies + throttle bodies. Plus run a tank of gas with the proper sea-foam mix. Cleared my bike up every time I started getting this. I would use the spray in the Throttle bodies foam it up good inside and out of the butterflies let it sit an hour or so, run the stuff out than manually clean the back sides of the butterflies as the stuff there was always burnt on well. Paper towel with seafoam worked well for this.
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Cbxmike
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2016 - 03:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I could clean them, but It's a new bike. Only 900 miles. I've got a tank of fresh fuel and sea-foam in it now. Runs strong in all rpm's except stated range. Butterflies are as new. I've looked at the intake valves. Like new. I'm truly thinking the original ecm flash didn't like sitting with a dead battery for several years and is relearning itself. I will de-noid the bike next chance I get and see if that helps. Solenoid could be working when it's not supposed to. Then re-flash the ecm with latest program. If that doesn't help, I'll remove and replace the TPS. I'll do it without replacing the entire throttle body. Can't see why not. I know the latest service bulletin says something to the effect of only replacing the entire TB with the new TPS. I just don't see it. Hopefully I can get this resolved and help others out with similar issues.
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Cbxmike
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

In most successful troubleshooting over the years, going back to what was the last thing that was changed prior to the problem arising has worked well for me. In this case, my charging system was just completely updated to include the improved charging Rotor from EBR. I suspected a possible issue with the CPS not sensing properly through the troubled rpm range and changed out the CPS with a new one. The terrible stumbling and cutting out the through this range all but went away. In otherwords, the new CPS fixed about 90% of the problem. I was clearly on to something. My thought now is, are the splines on the EBR Rotor milled correctly for the CPS to read? I have read about charging rotors on other Buells, possibly the Ulysses, that had a similar issue and there may have been a service bulliten or even a recall. Does anyone have any experience with this?
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Nuts4mc
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

1) I have only read one post where the trigger wheel (which I believe is a stamping) was poorly stamped or formed...burrs on the stamping gave the CPS a tough "time" to send the correct signal to the ECM...
2) some early '08s had a bad balancer gear ( the one that goes behind the rotor/flywheel)...the heat treatment/case hardening was wrong and the teeth of the gear start to peel away...my '08 had that problem...I believe it was the cause of engine replacement on early '08 production units ...see attached for gear ID and excessive wear...bike was cruising at a brisk pace on a mountain road...it "shut off" like I hit the kill switch...started back up but noise was apparent from rotor side...I believed the rotor nut came loose ('08s had the wrong loctite on the rotor nut) ...limped back home - opened the cover and saw many metal shavings in the oil.
- may want to check your balancer gear
gearID

teeth
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Ratbuell
Posted on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Have you checked/changed plugs and wires? It may only have 900 miles on it...but it still has age. Rubber gets old, contacts corrode, and with an old-fuel no-start...lord only knows what the electrodes look like.

My '09 has the noid in place (total stock bike) and I've never had a stutter issue. Stock stator with recall harness; stock exhaust; stock airbox; stock ECM.

But I am curious...why are you lugging the engine like that? Keep it over 5000. That's where they're happiest. Any engine, keep it over the middle of the tachometer. Ignore the number values - spin it to the upper half for power, efficiency, and smoothness. If you have a 6000 RPM redline, keep it over 3k. 10,500 redline? Over 5k.
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Cbxmike
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 08:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It could be the trigger wheel as described. Odd though that the problem all but went away (90% of it) after swapping the CPS. I must be on to something since after reinstalling the original CPS, original problem with much wider RPM troubled range reappeared.

As far as keeping the bike above 5k RPM most of the time as a fix? Just not something I can live with vs. working towards an actual fix for an engine problem. This is my second 2009 1125CR and the first one did not have this issue at all.
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Stevel
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 03:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As delivered in 2008, these engines make really poor power below 3500. They stutter and buck and just don't like going that slow. The 2009 models were a little bit better, but not much. Buell did change the injector spray pattern in 2009, which is what made that small difference. I removed the cable from the solenoid to throttle body to eliminate any possible interference the solenoid might cause. No HD ECM update will fix this issue. Don't even bother. However, sending your ECU to either EBR or Tim at IDS for their aftermarket tune will make it much better, not perfect, but better. Riding this bike in traffic is not nice, especially in hot weather. Ratbuell's comment although correct for smoothness, is really a bad idea in traffic, as it causes over heating of both the engine and fuel tank. Just avoid traffic.

The cause of this problem is poor and erratic flame propagation under vacuum. The reasons of this are low intake port gas velocity, long duration cam timing and low charge turbulence, not easy to fix. Making the AFR really fat at low speed helps enough that you can live with it.
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Cbxmike
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 08:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Stevel,
I here what your saying about poor flame propagation under vacuum. This could be part of my issue. One has to admit though that by simply replacing the CPS, 90% of the problem vanished. When the bike stumbles now around 3,600-3,700 RPM vs. a much wider range with the original CPS, the engine dies momentarily like a loss of ignition including a tach drop momentarily. Just like blipping the kill switch. Like the ECM isn't getting the correct signal for a brief second. I'm leaning towards an ECM reflash, ECM replacement or possibly trying a third CPS to see what that does. If swapping one CPS all but cleared up the problem, maybe there is a slight range of sensing that these units have and my Rotor is simply at the limit of sensing. Nothing else seems to makes sense. If the new CPS had little or no effect on this particular problem I would be more inclined to all the other possible causes everyone has mentioned. I'm definitely opened to suggestions but was hoping for the smoking gun of someone else with this exact symptom and a fix.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 08:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Actually...I note lower temps as I spin it faster (to a point, obviously I don't bounce it off the rev limiter...).

Part of the reason stators failed was lack of oil flow for cooling. Spin the motor, it spins the oil pump (and water pump), which in turn move more of their fluids through the engine. You do hit a point where coolant flow outpaces airflow across the radiators (which is what the fans are for)...but I'd still prefer moving more hot coolant versus less. Keep it circulating, it helps cut hot spots.

Not saying there may not be an issue in that engine...but once you get it figured out, don't lug the motor. Lugging exponentially increases the chances of causing more problems. Let it spin, let it breathe. If you want 2,000 rpm...go buy a tuber. The Helicon wasn't designed to spin that slowly.
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Stevel
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 07:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mike,
There are two problems that you are dealing with. It is important that you do not confuse the two. The first is that all 1125 Buells have poor low engine speed drivability. The second is your particular fault of stumble. The first is made better by a custom tune, not eliminated, but better. The second could be a bad TPS (I don't know what a CPS is), but the TPS is nothing but a variable resister. These are both inexpensive and easy to check with a simple ohm meter. The TPS is not made by HD. They are used on many vehicles and are available everywhere. There is a previous post here where the many TPS compatible part numbers are listed.
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Alex
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 08:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

CPS = Crank Position Sensor
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Stevel
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Alex..... I had a brain fart! Your box arrived yesterday, thanks!
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Snacktoast
Posted on Friday, March 24, 2017 - 12:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Crank position sensors tend to work, or they dont. There rarely is little in between. I would bet large truck loads of cash that is not your issue.
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