| Author | Message | ||
     Fireboltxb9r |
Not sure how this happened but while attempting to install my front wheel with newly mounted Pirelli, somehow the first part of the threads got messed up on both the axle and inside the fork leg. No local bike shop has a tap this large so I plan to try a local machine shop to see if they can chase and clean the threads. Has anyone else ever had this issue? I really don't understand what went wrong. It must have just been slightly misaligned is my guess. Does anyone know the correct size of tap required to clean up these threads? Looks like I may need to buy this tap as I can't find anyone, even local machine shops who have this. May need to order from McMaster-Carr. Thanks in advance!  (Message edited by Fireboltxb9r on June 11, 2013) | ||
| Jdugger |
Put the axle in from the other side. Lubricate with a good cutting oil. I've made this same mistake. | ||
| Mcelhaney14 |
You could probably use jewelers files to clean up the threads on the axle if they aren't too bad. Then thread it through the other side. | ||
| Fireboltxb9r |
The axle I did clean up with a thread file and it easily threads with my fingers all the way in from the other side until it gets to a certain point (first inside threads) where problem is. To be honest I'm concerned I could screw things up more just "threading it through" even with a "good cutting oil". Is this concern legit? I'd much rather use a tap if I can determine correct size. Is the axle steel and the fork leg threads aluminum? And why you guys are recommending this approach? Thanks again but I'd really hate to end up having to buy a fork assembly due to my ignorance. | ||
| Jdugger |
> I'm concerned I could screw things up more just > "threading it through" even with a "good cutting oil". Is this concern legit? Yes, but a tap isn't free, either. It removes material, even in threads already cut and otherwise fine. Although, if you could find a forming tap instead of a cutting tap in this size, it would be a better tool for this job. The axle leg is AL, the axle is Steel, so the axle should form the axle leg threads, and you will have the security of having threaded the axle through the existing threads getting you there. At least, that's how it worked for me when I did it. It's not perfect, but neither is a effed fork tube  Also, consider this... look at the amount of axle that is threaded into the fork leg. How many of those threads do you actually need to sustain 40 ft lbs, the torque required to properly load the bearing races against that brake-side fork leg? What do you think would happen if you just took a dremel to the first set of threads that are messed up and removed them entirely? | ||
| Mcelhaney14 |
Another thing I have used in the past was valve lapping compound on the bad section and just worked the threads back and forth slowly. Takes a lot of time. | ||
| Jdugger |
btw, if you go the tap route, it's an M24x2 left hand thread. | ||
| Fireboltxb9r |
Awesome! You gents have made some great recommendations and given me some options I'm quite sure can work. I'll keep you posted with my hopefully positive progress! Best regards. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I strongly doubt the axle is steel. I'd have to get a magnet to be sure but I just put a front tire on my CR...fairly certain its AL like the rear axle is. If it was steel...it would have survived intact while boogering the fork. | ||
| Jdugger |
> I strongly doubt the axle is steel. Now you have me wondering! I know it's only .125" thick at the taper, and that's pretty thin for Aluminum... I'm pretty sure both axles are zinc-plated steel, come to think of it. (Message edited by jdugger on June 11, 2013) | ||
| Mcelhaney14 |
I'm pretty sure it's steel. I think mine even had some rust on them. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Ya learn something every day. I'd have sworn "not steel". Magnet test just now? Steel. At least, magnetic. I stand corrected. | ||
| Jdugger |
> Magnet test just now? Steel. At least, magnetic. Yea, the other materials significantly magnetic are a bit too expensive and impractical for an axle! | ||
| Hughlysses |
I strongly doubt the axle is steel. I'd have to get a magnet to be sure but I just put a front tire on my CR...fairly certain its AL like the rear axle is. RB- I thought the same thing about my Uly axles until a couple of years ago when someone pointed out my error. Thinking about it, aluminum would not be a good choice for a highly stressed component like this. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I thought about that. Then I thought about the aluminum wheel hub. Aluminum forks. Aluminum swingarm. All fitted together. And I thought "hmm...could be". | ||
| Jdugger |
> Aluminum forks. The tops of them are... take a magnet to the lower part of the fork leg, though. | ||
| Fireboltxb9r |
Well gents, I have a resolve. Took the advise of a couple here and also from Twin Motorcycles http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/ (very helpful on this and other issues I've had. Threaded the axle (which is steel) from other side using grease to prevent galling. Took it easy and slow, in and out, and it now works fine. There is a bit of resistance but it isn't bad at all. I will just exercise caution from here on out. For sh*ts and giggles I also emailed EBR for their opinion and received a very prompt reply: "It is a large tap, and left hand thread. So it will be an expensive tap, although probably cheaper than a fork leg. But re-tapping is something we cannot say should be done. Yes, the axle is steel and the fork lowers aluminum. But we cannot speak to the idea of using the axle to “clean up” threads, even less so than tapping. In our opinion, this is a safety critical joint, and any damage suggests to us that the parts be replaced. Only a well-trained tech could possibly make a different call, and that person would need to do some measurements and calculations. Thank you, EBR Tech Support" After replying to them "Thank you" I received this last response: "Wish we had a cheaper answer, but your safety is first. Thank you for understanding". Looking back I fully understand their position and in a perfect world would agree and comply. But unfortunately, I am a man of modest means without the sponsorship of Hero and Amsoil, so opted for plan B. As EBR did also say, I did have my local tech look at and the damaged area was confined to only 1 small section of 1 thread. With about 17 threads this amount of "compromised integrity" was insignificant per the tech and I agreed. Without EBR seeing in person they made the right call, and I respect their ultimate concern with safety. I've learned an important lesson and will be very cautious on future wheel changes. Thanks again for all the feedback!  | ||
| Dannybuell |
'their ultimate concern with safety' or liability? this thread makes a hood argument for using anti-seize compound. anti-seize on the threads is like a hot knife on butter. bolts always slide right in with anti-seize. | ||
| Johndb |
mechanical gurus please correct me if I'm wrong...but anti-seize will likely cause issues when trying to correctly torque the axles, and may result in crushing the spacers. | ||
| Kevmean |
I see where you are coming from John as we have had the same discussion about torques and lubricated / unlubricated threads on ukbeg this week, the easier the thread turns the less torque needed to overcome the turning motion so more of that torque then goes to the clamping force if that makes sense hence why torque settings normally include whether dry /lubricated or loctited threads. I'd go for coppaslip + the low end of the torque setting. | ||
| Jdugger |
> this thread makes a hood argument for using anti-seize compound. And, the service procedure specifies it, btw. But, here's what happened to OP: The weight of the wheel was not well supported while starting the threading of the axle. So, it gets into the first thread -- not enough to pull the wheel into alignment -- and boogers that first thread making it impossible to start the axle. I've had it happen to me as well. That's why I recommended they just thread the axle backwards. SOmething like 97% of a fastener's clamping load comes from the first three threads, so having that starter one a little off isn't going to make much of a different, IMHO -- the load is carried by the other threads. | ||
| Fireboltxb9r |
"The weight of the wheel was not well supported while starting the threading of the axle". You are absolutely correct Jdugger. A mistake I will never make again. Wheel will always be supported from now on to assure correct alignment. Regarding anti-sieze, it's my understanding this is used so that dis-assembly can be accomplished easily by protecting the bolt/nut or whatever 2 metal surfaces from rust or corrosion. | ||
| Oldog |
mechanical gurus please correct me if I'm wrong...but anti-seize will likely cause issues when trying to correctly torque the axles, and may result in crushing the spacers. The FSM values for torque are provided with the axles coated with anti-sieze per the instructions, ( at least the '08 )} | ||
| Johndb |
Oops, right, Oldog. I forgot that the manual calls for anti-seize on the axle. I guess I was thinking in a more general sense, that applying anti-seize where it's not specifically called for could cause excess torque to be applied to fasteners, and may result in thread damage. | ||
| Fireboltxb9r |
Well, this side of buying a new fork assembly I believe I need to try Jduggers suggestion of taking a dremel and removing the damaged thread. As mentioned prior I did get the axle threading quite well with the fork off the bike. However, if I didn't get it started just right it would bind. Almost like there's 2 seperate tread patterns. Even had it working well with no wheel and forks set at same height(manual tells you to thread axle without wheel to assure proper fork alignment). Unfortunately when I went to mount supported wheel, I be damned if it wouldn't track on the right path. I tried numerous times and could not get it going correctly. Took wheel out of the equation and I could again get it started correctly just making sure and judging by visual inspection it was centered perfect. But with wheel in place you can't see the centering and it just would not start right. I can't believe this has turned into such a fiasco. Wish me well.....I'll keep you posted. Thanks! | ||
| Jdugger |
I've found when installing the axle it's important to support the wheel with your foot and put a lot of insertion pressure on the axle (and rattle it a little with the axle tool) to make sure it starts the threads correctly. If you do go down the road of removing some threads, do it very gently. Just the tops of the messed up threads, and very, very, very, precious little material. You will find by removing material with a dremel you will make it impossible to start the threads from the normal direction again. So, the way I did it was to take just the deformed top of the thread out (and only in the spot where it got boogered), and then have the axle threaded in from the outside of the leg to reform the thread correctly. I had to do the rear on one of my bikes. (Message edited by jdugger on June 17, 2013) |
