| Author | Message | ||
     Chameleon |
I've put over 63,000 miles on my 2008 1125R and am wondering if it might be time to replace the cam chains, guides, and tensioner assemblies. I ask because I've been experiencing the following:
What I've done so far:
There is an air leak in the airbox due to the baseplate assembly (P/N#P0700.1AMD) coming apart slightly where the plastic weld joining the top & bottom has failed. Shouldn't really cause a huge problem as I have previously run the bike with the airbox cover removed without causing any issues except lower top speed/acceleration over 80 mph. Are the symptoms above consistent with what would be expected when it's time to replace the cam chains / tensioner / guides? The manual doesn't list a service interval for the chain, so it's difficult to say when it should be replaced. Just looking for confirmation that the timing chain is a likely culprit. Maintenance history | ||
| Duphuckincati |
Don't have any advice on your chains, but looked at your history...looks like a lot of stuff! Your tenacity is admirable. | ||
| Dannybuell |
have you checked all of your grounds? | ||
| 1125rcya |
Sounds like time for a big bore kit! | ||
| 1125rcya |
Better yet, time to part it out..dibs on the front rim! 150+ shipping  | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
If the CCTs on the 1125 motor are as easy to get to as they are on most I4s, then I'd start by just replacing the CCTs and see if that helps. I'd think that cam chains would be pretty hearty, but I recall reading an article a while back where the cam gears and chain were replaced on a '90s Camaro LT1 with something like 130K miles on it, and the car ran significantly better with the new chain, suggesting that the old one was pretty stretched. Of course that's 130K miles and your bike has half that, but the 1125 motor can rev twice as high. | ||
| Firemanjim |
But you would not think losing spark in front cyl would be related to cam chain. I second the look at grounds and wiring to front cyl | ||
| Blownharley |
popping on decel generally is due to leaking exhaust valves.... Just saying! | ||
| Chameleon |
I have not and as far as I know none of the mechanics that have touched it have done so either. It's a good suggestion and I will ask the mechanic @ DHD to do so.
Yes, I completely agree and I'm thinking the stretched cam chains could be the cause. | ||
| Rodrob |
Yes. The guides are known to be a weakness in the motor. If you have not upgraded the tensioners to the latest version, then you want to do so as well. As far as your symptoms, I doubt that they are directly related to the timing chain and guides. I plan to replace mine at 40,000 as part of regular service. You can inspect the left side lower guide for wear by pulling the rotor. If it is scored, then replace everything. | ||
| Oldog |
Intermittent loss of spark (missing) on front cylinder for sure, the engines timing for fuel and spark are on the crank and the chain is not the issue, unless you are seeing evidence of fuel burn in the intake ports or burnt seats on the exhaust valves, I further the check the wiring, } | ||
| Stirz007 |
Rob+1: My front chain was toasted after less than 5000 miles - mostly track/race miles granted.. (toasted, as in blued from heat). I was running first gen '08 guides. New guides, new chain, good to go. | ||
| Two_seasons |
Doesn't popping on decel indicate unburned fuel? Does the race ECM give you fixed AFV's? If your O2 sensor is seeing lean, it will bump the AFV up (not sure race ECM will allow that), thus more fuel and possible unburned fuel during decel. | ||
| Battyone |
looks like you've always had something wrong with the way it ran. Plug fouling??? What exhaust you running? I programme my own ecms but no matter how rich I've tried I've never fouled a plug. And run the standard plugs ffs, By your history I'd say you need a new engine loom for a start. Your other symptoms point towards exhaust valves being shot- backfires,warm stumbles and running hot- are you sure you got shims right? If you did seats are gone. Extra noise since Norm did the starter sprag clutch? could be the rotor floating. With the constant plug fouling,I'd say piston rings gone due to excessive bore wash Regardless,it's much cheaper to buy a used motor from a breaker than fix a worn one. Then you can pull yours apart at your leisure or use it as an ornament. | ||
| Two_seasons |
Have you done a recent compression check? I'd do that and see if it's still 110/110 as you indicated in your maintenance schedule. | ||
| Chameleon |
Hey all, I truly appreciate all the feedback received! Point of clarification: The EBR ECM is very new and was only recently thrown on to remove the fueling as a variable when diagnosing the stumbling/dying. They tell me it did help a little, but I haven't rode the bike myself yet to confirm. I had the targeted 09+ injectors installed about 3,000 miles ago when the dealer told me one of the injectors was bad. I bought the targeted injectors direct from EBR since they were WAY cheaper for the pair than even one of the OEM injectors from H-D. I haven't been able to get the bike properly tuned since due to the front cyl electrical issue, which I suspect may have been the actual problem the whole time, even when the dealer said the injector was bad; it was probably not... Here's some more information which I think is relevant: When my friend Norm replaced the sprag clutch & flywheel, he had to remove and reinstall the stator rotor and the infamous rotor nut. When doing so, he went by the torque spec published in the 2008 service manual as neither of us knew any different. Apparently that information has since been revised to a much higher torque spec of 295 ft/lbs rather than 215 ft/lbs published in the manual. It is also apparently advisable to use a new nut. It was about 50 miles after this service was performed that I noticed/documented the odd knocking sound and only put these two things together after reviewing other threads here on the forum. I think it is very likely that this is the cause of the knocking sound. Therefore, I propose this course of action and would like your feedback whether it seems reasonable and prudent or if I may be missing something: Buell 1125R action plan
I may also have the mechanic do this:
(Message edited by chameleon on April 01, 2013) | ||
| Chameleon |
I'm not certain when you bought your 1125R, but I bought mine on 1/15/2008 and have #679 off the production line. Early on the ECM calibration was seriously buggered which I believe contributed to the first 2 sets of fouled plugs. The very first time the plugs were changed, the front boot seemed to have not made a proper seal and there was evidence of water intrusion and corrosion on the plug. Pic below:  Click for full size It has been the front plug which kept fouling and the bike has seems to have had more issues on that front cylinder, so there does seem to have been something amiss the entire time which has now progressed to the point where something must be done to correct it. I've always run the stock exhaust and am on my 2nd one because the first rusted through in a few places due to riding year round in the Pacific Northwest weather. After resolving the present issues with the bike, my first order of business will be to replace the exhaust with a Barker and have the EBR ECM re-calibrated to suit it. Please educated me as to why the standard plugs must be used. The hotter plugs were used to compensate for the fueling issues and fouling. They did seem to help as I was able to go more miles between changing them.
Not sure if I agree that replacing the entire wiring harness is warranted at this point; particularly in a "throw parts at it" strategy... The decel popping is only slightly more than it's always done and I only really noticed it when the bike was last on the dyno. I didn't do the shims; a different mechanic who is very experienced and whom I trust did them. I paid him to do so and trust that he did what he stated/billed me for. I don't work on my bike beyond changing the oil and spark plugs; and I replaced the belt once. It's best that I not work on it beyond that because doing so is NOT my forte.
I agree and aim to have this investigated/resolved as indicated in my previous post.
Perhaps, but wouldn't there be significant smoke from burning oil? There isn't any that I can detect.
Yes, it would be cheaper to replace the motor than rebuild it. I will do so if it comes to that. | ||
| Two_seasons |
Water does not compress, putting more load on one piston than the other. As far a bore wash, I believe he meant that gas was diluting your oil as it was pushing past the ring set. I'd be inclined to believe that changing spark plugs while the engine is not rotated/frame off could cause the boot to be compromised. I'd check the rotor too. New nut from EBR and red Loctite (272 IIRC), let dry and button it back up. You WILL find debris in the oil pump screen. All of us have noticed it. What may look like large chunks of metallic may in fact just be gasket material from service intervals. I try to stay around 4,000 rpm and above when riding. | ||
| Chameleon |
While this is true, I do not believe water was getting into the cylinder through the spark plug as you can see that they appear virtually identical from the threads down to the electrode.
Ah, makes sense. I'll mention it to the mechanic and ask his opinion.
True, except the picture above was from the very first time the plugs were checked/changed. Subsequently the front boot did not have this issue because we made damn sure to use sufficient grease around the boot seal when re-installing it.
Yeah, definitely seems apropos.
Good to know.
As do I. | ||
| Rodrob |
Two_seasons: You WILL find debris in the oil pump screen. All of us have noticed it. What may look like large chunks of metallic may in fact just be gasket material from service intervals. More likely to be plastic from timing chain guides (black - very early ones were brown) or epoxy from the alternator rotor (grey). If you have found small black bits in your oil screen, then you most definitely want to change your timing chain guides. Also check the machining on your alternator rotor. There have been some defective rotors out there that do not provide correct timing info to the ECM and can cause a lot of unpredictable ignition problems. | ||
| Chameleon |
Good info; thanks! I'll mention this as well to the mechanic when he's back in tomorrow. | ||
| Battyone |
Chameleon... I've got 3 1125s... 2 2008s one of which was one of the very first in the country. and a 2009. Plus 2 ex dyno mule motors from EBR. And I drag race them. Having broken a couple of motors,plus had one of the 2008s have the balance gear issue,I've probably got more time inside these things than most HD/Buell mechanics. Twin electrode plugs are extremely beneficial in wide bore motors.And I find it very hard to believe that going up one heat range in iridium would offset the loss of one ground strap. The rotor nut does not need replacing IF it threads smoothly on to the crank. Most important is to get some loctite on the rotor splines. Have you tried swapping the coils around? to see if the problem goes with it? | ||
| Chameleon |
Yes, I see your point and agree.
Agreed.
I tried swapping the front coil with one from a known good 2009 1125R and it made no difference. | ||
| Battyone |
Hmm,damaged wiring to the coil?? should show up as a fault on the instrument display.But??? If it's a fault in either the signal wire or the 12v feed,maybe the feedback signal is still ok. Not sure what it is the ecm looks at to know the coil's ok. Your report says wiring damage doesn't it? I had plug come off after plug change...started miss firing in the burnout,then the clever little thing told me "no communication front coil" would have taken ages to find,the connector was still in the coil,just not far enough. | ||
| Dennis_c |
If I remember right 1 year+ ago my compression check was 200,220. That 100 110 sounds like a old lawn mower. (Message edited by dennis c on April 03, 2013) | ||
| Kevmean |
Am I correct in the fact that it uses the minute change in speed as the piston hits compression to know which cylinder should be firing? this is the reason you can't test for a spark by spinning the engine over unless you have plugs fitted ..... so any compression problems may also prevent that cylinder firing correctly and then foul the plug? ........If it has always had a problem is it possible that cam timing wasn't quite right from new or that you are suffering from the badly machined rotor segments that it uses for the timing? | ||
| Sparky |
No. Each cylinder fires independently from the trigger impulses the ECM sees. That's why one can see the spark from a plug held against the engine while cranking. Compression is not a factor in this case, but if the ignition system is weak, then compression may overpower the ability to make a spark. | ||
| Kevmean |
Check page 6-100 of the electrical diagnostic manual .... it states when checking for spark it will not spark if the plugs are removed ............. you need a set of plugs in the engine while checking for a spark on a plug external of the engine. That leads me to think that any lack of compression will prevent that cylinder from firing correctly. | ||
| Cataract2 |
That's because the engine case is the ground for the spark plugs. Not touching the engine = no spark. | ||
| Kevmean |
Also read Electronic control module 6.2 regarding crank position signal syncronisation and engine phasing ..... lack of compression would cause a problem with the first and also poorly machined segments on the rotor would also confuse the ecu. It uses the slow down of the crank due to compression to decide which cylinder is approaching tdc if it loses sync it then trys firing every engine revolution to see which of the 2 sparks causes an increase in rpm due to one being on power stroke and the other not. | ||
| Kevmean |
It has nothing to do with the engine ground ...a spark plug removed from engine and grounded onto the engine will only spark if there are other plugs installed to give the engine compression for the ecu to detect the correct phasing of the crank. | ||
| Chameleon |
Yeah, I'm thinking it's likely a wiring fault to the front coil which is causing intermittent connection. Still waiting for them to get to my bike. The only wiring damage I've addressed on the bike was in the ignition and one of the radiator fans, both of which were repaired long ago.  
Yeah, if your memory is correct, then mine being half what it should be definitely isn't right... However, it did still put down 124.35 RWHP & 72.85 FtLbs only 50 days and 3,375 miles later, so I'm not sure if it's all that bad. Is there an official spec somewhere listing an appropriate range of what it should be? I did test ride a stock used 2009 1125R at one point which did seem to have noticeably more power than mine. (Message edited by chameleon on April 04, 2013) | ||
| Imblasted |
service manual: Compression is normal if final readings are 120 psi or more. |
