| Author | Message | ||
     Drhodes1970 |
My stator was rewound by custom rewind in alabama last fall and has since burned up. Now he is telling me that they do not have a warranty policy. When I got the stator done he told me that there was a 1yr. warranty. | ||
| Timebandit |
Well that blows. I guess this means that they tell you about a warranty when they're selling you the job, but they don't print the warranty terms on your receipt when you buy their services. Thanks for the tip. I won't consider using them. | ||
| Sparky |
What did he say the warranty was for? My guess would be that the warranty would only cover replacement if it failed due to CR's faulty workmanship or materials, not fix a design flaw. Maybe he'll pro-rate another rewind job for you based on the amount of time you used it... and get a written warranty on it this time. I'd suggest tactfully negotiating something like this. Oh yeah, spring for an EBR oiling rotor while waiting for the stator to be done.  | ||
| Dannybuell |
Who will be the next 1125 rewinder? Will it be Timebandit or Hildstrom in the bootstrap tradition of Dean Adam's and KEDA? Perhaps someone new? It has been over two years, I was kind of hoping this rewinder issue would have sorted itself out by now. | ||
| Timebandit |
Timebandit?!? LOL. If anyone thinks that somebody here is going to go into a stator rewind business to compete with the factory then they haven't thought the risk/reward situation all the way through, and they're just engaging in wishful thinking. The situation is totally different with exhausts and stators. With exhausts, you re building something that's entirely new, and you can set the price at what the market will bear for a unique, custom built product. You're not competing with an equivalent factory product, and a price point of $1000+ leaves you room for margin. With stators, you're trying to build something by hand that will take many hours of your time. You're competing with a machine that can build an identical product in a couple of minutes. In the end, your part is indistinguishable from the machine-built commodity. The parts input cost is very high due to the high price of commodities. The result is that the input cost for parts makes up a sizeable amount of the product's total cost. That doesn't leave a hand-winder any room to be reimbursed for labor. A hand-winder can not compete with a machine that can spit out a stator and sell it for a price that is barely over the manufacturing cost. If anyone wants hand-wound stators, then you need to reconsider what you're willing to pay for them. I think the fundamental problem is that people believe that the brand new H-D part is too expensive at $600. It isn't expensive, you're just cheap. If I were going to hand-wind stators, I wouldn't consider doing it for under $1,000. Someone else may be willing to do it for less, but they're going to waste a lot of their time to get very sore fingers and not much money for their effort. I'm not interested. | ||
| Baf |
I'm sorry, but the part IS too expensive at $600+. The input materials don't cost anywhere near that much money, and as you've stated, they're wound by machines in a matter of minutes. Hildstrom was able to get materials to rewind his for /much/ less than $600. The stator core itself shouldn't cost hundreds of dollars; and if it does, operating on a core exchange basis would bring prices back into check. | ||
| Froggy |
I don't know what the cost is to make the 1125 stators, but the XB ones are $142 for the 3 phase model and $119 for the single phase. There must be a reason for the XB stator being 1/5th of the price. Even various aftermarket stators for various brands don't come anywhere near the $679 of the 1125 stator. | ||
| Timebandit |
Obviously, you guys aren't economists. > "I don't know what the cost is to make the 1125 stators, but the XB ones are $142 for the 3 phase model and $119 for the single phase." That doesn't have anything to do with the price of tea in china. First, the XB stator is a sportster design that belongs to HD. It's development expense has already been amortized for decades. The 1125 design is something new and the development price has not yet been recovered. It's not rational to expect the prices to be the same. Making matters worse, HD doesn't own the rights to the design. You are now at the mercy of Rotax. Rotax paid a lot of money to buy the rights to the Helicon from HD. Now they want to make their money back. Second, Greg Hildstrom told us that the price quote, excluding shipping, to buy 150-feet of the of Kapton-coated wire that's needed to DIY-fabricate an 1125 stator, is $0.84 per foot. $0.84 x 150 = $126. Just the spool of wire that's needed for a manual rewind of the 1125 stator is going to cost you more than the complete single phase XB stator, and by the time that you ship it, as much as the complete 3-phase XB stator. You guys who like to think about DIY conveniently forget about what it costs to do business in the real world. In the real world, everyone involved in handling the product has to make return on their investment. That includes the OEM, the distributor, and the retail point of sale. Every man has his markup, and that's only fair. For the XB stator, HD owns the design. HD could wind them in-house or they could source them directly from a contract supplier. They can't do that with the 1125 stator -- the 1125 stator is a proprietary design that doesn't belong to HD any more -- it now belongs to Rotax. When HD wants 1125 stators, they have to buy them from Rotax, who either builds them themselves or sources them from a supplier. You are now dealing with a supply chain that has more tiers. You're going to pay for that. If it costs an OEM $125 for wire, $100 for the core, and another $25 in other parts, connectors, etc., they've got $250 in the stator just in parts costs. We haven't included manufacturing costs, such as depreciable equipment, factories, electricity, labor, etc. Suppose that adds $50 to the cost of the stator. Now the sunk cost for the stator is $300 and the producer hasn't even turned a profit. Suppose the OEM adds-on $100 to pay their overhead and add a reasonable profit. 33% ROI is not out of line. The stator now costs $400. Rotax has to get their cut. Add $100, or 25%. Harley has to get their cut. Add $100, or 20%. Dealership has to get their cut. Add 15%. Now the stator costs $675. Like it or not, everyone here bought an expensive, high performance, newly-designed European drivetrain that's being re-branded by an American "aspirational brand" company that's known for charging $100 for something that costs $25 to make. we all know that simply imprinting "H-D" makes it cost more, because H-D is actually an abbreviation for "Hundred-Dollars." H-D's marketing strategy is to make people pay more for branding. With the 1125 there are twice as many middlemen involved here as there are in the typical HD product. How in the world can you guys realistically expect that you're going to get a bargain on anything??? Sure, the fire sale trained us all to think like cheepskates looking for a bargain. Those days are long gone. Now we have to deal with the harsh reality that you're buying parts that are going to be priced on par with an Aprilia or a Ducati, not a sportster. Of course, if you factor in the fact that the commodity price of copper has skyrocketed, I'm amazed that the cost of the stators hasn't gone up since the 1125 came out in 2008. (Message edited by timebandit on June 18, 2012) | ||
| Drhodes1970 |
Gary told me on the phone last year that the rewind had a 1yr. warranty. Yes this was when I talked to him on the phone about GETTING it done. Now it's no deal! Please someone let me know where to get this thing rewound. I will not patronize custom rewind after this. It would have been different if he would have said in the beginning that there was no warranty to be had from him. | ||
| Baf |
> Second, Greg Hildstrom told us that the price quote, excluding shipping, to buy 150-feet of the of Kapton-coated wire that's needed to DIY-fabricate an 1125 stator, is $0.84 per foot. He said that he bought 1000 feet for around 16.3 cents a foot, IIRC. That works out to being MUCH cheaper than $126. Actually, it comes out to being $100 less. When producing stators in bulk, you can take even more advantage of the economy of scale at play. I'm just not seeing $250 in material costs here. | ||
| Froggy |
No, the XB uses a different stator than the Sportster. The XB shares very little with the Sportster other than its roots.
 I read Harley paid 7 figures to terminate is plans with Rotax (Cycle World, May 2010) Also, the stator used on the 2008 1125R is nearly identical (different connector) to the one used in the Can Am Spyder, but the Can Am one is a couple hundred cheaper. (I don't know anyone that actually bought and installed one to confirm, but the pictures made them look the same)
I thought he bought significantly more for only a couple more dollars? I'll have to go and double check, but either way, economies of scale. | ||
| Timebandit |
you may be right on all those points. the bottom line is that when all the smoke clears, HD no longer owns the helicon design. now everything goes through rotax. that means additional layers of middlemen and markups. it's important to realize that when a manufacturer decides to buy a boatload of wire to obtain economy of scale, they do that for their benefit, not yours. you should expect that they are smart enough to use a price model that allows them to charge for their product based upon what you would have to pay for materials when buying in small quantity, not what they have to pay when buying in large quantity. they have to assume sunk cost and economic risk to achieve economy of scale. they take the risk for their benefit, not yours. don't expect them to be generous and cut their prices so you get it cheaper. that's a bad business model. the fact that Can-Am prices are cheaper proves my point. why owns Can-Am anyway? BRP. who also owns Rotax. the obvious answer is that Rotax provides parts to Can-Am at a good price because both Rotax and Can-Am are owned by BRP. Can-Am parts are cheaper because HD and HD dealership are not adding additional layers of middlemen between the OEM and the customer. everyone who touches the part needs a markup. it's not surprising that the Can-Am part would be cheaper. it should be that way. | ||
| Baf |
Of course there are sunk costs, risks, overhead, etc. The economy of scale doesn't change the fact that there is a huge margin of profit for somebody going on here. Perhaps H-D isn't the one screwing everyone here, and it is Rotax. I guess the bottom line here is that someone is screwing somebody. There is a large profit margin for somebody involved, and charging such high prices is a pretty crappy move, especially for parts that are failure-prone by design. Can-Am parts only cut out the H-D middleman; dealer overhead is the same for both. I guess the bottom line here is that we can't necessarily demonize H-D without knowing how much they're paying Rotax for the stators. Does Rotax actually own the 09 stator design as well? | ||
| Hildstrom |
Don't neglect the $14 shipping. One quote was $140 for 150' of polyimide-insulated wire to rewind one stator. I got 1000' for $177 to have extra and do some other projects. Dannybuell: I have little interest in rewinding as a service. Maybe if I lose my day job. Drhodes1970: I spoke with Gary at Custom Rewind in January 2012 when mine crapped out. He told me they would rewind my stator, but they cannot warranty the work because the 1125 motor has fundamental design flaws that will eventually cause it to fail again. He said he had to rewind too many Buell 1125 stators for free to continue offering a warranty on them. If you get it rewound again, make sure you take steps to improve stator longevity: * EBR oil-cooling rotor * series regulator * DIY air-cooling rotor | ||
| Dannybuell |
Hildstrom ~ great advice. | ||
| Drhodes1970 |
My point was that he told me that the rewind he was performing had a 1yr. warranty. He should have at least did one free rewind and then told me that he couldn't do it anymore under warranty. That he was no longer giving the 1yr. warranty. I would never expect him to rewind under warranty indefinitely but he should have stuck to his word on the first one. Bottom line is he lied to me. | ||
| Hildstrom |
Drhodes1970: I agree, that's no way to do business. You could always file something in small claims court if you feel strongly enough about it. | ||
| Drhodes1970 |
I don't feel that is necessary. All it would do is be a big PITA. I just didn't want anyone else getting their stators rewound thinking that he would do the warranty work that he claimed he would do. | ||
| Pwillikers |
David, Does (did) Custom Rewind use polyimide-insulated wire when they rewound your stator? Greg, did you ask them when you spoke to them back when you were researching the topic? Do any rewinders allow that it be specified as an increased cost option? | ||
| Timebandit |
If find it very ironic that Custom Rewind's business model is based upon providing a service that is made necessary because of design flaws, yet he refuses to warrant his work because there are design flaws. That excuse is way too convenient -- it sounds a lot like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. What he's doing is basically telling you there is a warranty, and then making up an excuse to weasel out of it. Everyone knows that he offered you a warranty when he did the rewind in order to gain your business, and that he's crapping on you when it comes time for you to collect. It's very convenient for him that a "design flaw" has to exist for him to obtain you as a customer, but that same "design flaw" eliminates his responsibility to provide warranty service. Plain and simple, this guy's verbal promises aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Perhaps you should tell him that now that you have the oiling rotor, the "design error" that he claims to have existed no longer exists. From now on, he's obliged to make good on his 1-year warranties for anyone who has the oiling rotor. Once you put him on notice that you have the oiling rotor, he's been notified that the "design error" no longer exists. Now he has to warrant his warranty rewinds. All of them. In all likelihood, you aren't going to have another stator failure if you do all the things Hilde recommended. But if you do, if the guy at Custom Rewind is an honest businessman, you'll get all the rewinds you need in one year if his product should fail. I'm glad that you're telling everyone on the internet about his business practices. The truth needs to be told, and he deserves whatever comes of it. | ||
| Timebandit |
> "I guess the bottom line here is that someone is screwing somebody." There is a limit to how much I'm willing to complain about this stator business. In the big scheme of things I paid $5000 for a bike that was worth 2-1/2 times that. I just can't bring myself to whine about spending money on the charging system. The total cost of ownership of the bike is still pretty low -- lower than any competitive product on the market. Instead of pissing and moaning about the bike, I am grateful every time that I throw a leg over it. > "There is a large profit margin for somebody involved, and charging such high prices is a pretty crappy move, especially for parts that are failure-prone by design." Welcome to the Real World. Some people design parts to wear out knowing that you will have to replace them. Think of it this way -- HD lost their shirts on this bike. Because of creative accounting, Buell was a loss center for them on paper. P&A (parts and accessories) is a totally different animal. It's one of the main profit centers for HD. After losing their shirts on these bikes, someone has decided to screw you on parts. You know it's happening. Now you have to accept it and move on, or not accept it and move on. We're stagnating by continuing to piss and moan about this. You have to make the decision of whether or not the bike is work keeping. Make the decision, and live with it. Nobody wants to hear the constant whining, so just accept the situation and keep the bike it or reject the situation and get rid of the bike. Yes, Rotax owns the rights to the motor, and that includes the stator. I don't have privileged access to the P&A data that would tell us who is putting the screws to us. Not that it really matters -- the situation is what it is, and we all have to choose whether we want to stay in or get out. That's the bottom line. Commiseration serves no useful purpose. | ||
| Hildstrom |
Pwillikers: After my phone conversation with Custom Rewind, I sent an email asking about the wire insulation and epoxy they were going to use. I never got a response, which was part of the reason I decided to rewind it myself. | ||
| Ktmracer54 |
Hildsrom. You should try ricksmotorsportselectrics. He did a great job on my stator. Upgraded the wire to 250 degree. 50 degree over oem | ||
| Hildstrom |
Ktmracer54: How do you know the OEM rating? | ||
| Ktmracer54 |
Talking to rick at ricksmotorsports. I told him my stator only had 3k miles on it. So he looked at the OEM specs and told me he could use a higher temp wire to see if that would help. I never saw the spec for myself. I can tell you that talking to him he was very interested in trying to help me come up with a fix for my stator. In the ktm dirtbike world he came up with a great rebuild kit for ktm starters. | ||
| Ktmracer54 |
He did special order the wire. You have to buy the entire roll. But it wasn't that bad. Well worthwhile if my stator makes it 20k. | ||
| Ktmracer54 |
Hildstrom. By the way your post on the regulators is great !!!! It helped me so much. I bought the bike knowing the problems. But I also seen your post so I knew it could be fixed.... | ||
| Drhodes1970 |
So, I guess we have a new rewinder! I'll be talking to him. Thanx Jeremy! | ||
| Hildstrom |
Ktmracer54: Thanks. So Rick's Motorsport Electrics does not use 240C/250C polyimide-insulated wire by default. That is a special request and they will do it. That is excellent information for anyone else getting a rewind. I wonder what epoxy he used and what its temperature rating is; hopefully it is >= 240C like the various options mentioned in my rewind thread/page. | ||
| Drhodes1970 |
Timebandit, should I get it rewound with the heavier wire or should I get it done stock. Will the oiling rotor coupled with the harness fix be a cool setup if i stay stock with the stator? I dont want to start changing too many things and run into a whole new set of issues. |
