| Author | Message | ||
     Fitz1125 |
Yeah. the rep I talked to said he was going to call the dealer and find out what's up. If i can't get goodwill... well... let's just say she might not be securely strapped to the trailer on the way home. LOL Either that, or I sell her for what I owe and be done with it | ||
| Cravacor |
So replacement of the stator has nothing to do with the removal of this nut, apparently. Yes, it does sound like a huge liability for BMC, I wish I had an army of lawyers to sick on their army of lawyers. Maybe some opportunist lawyer will read these posts and decide to take up our cause. Thanks for the info, Bandit. | ||
| Dannybuell |
The issue sounds like a manufacturing problem, perhaps a product liability issue? | ||
| Blake |
>>> well... let's just say she might not be securely strapped to the trailer on the way home. If you are implying what I think you are implying, then that would constitute a criminal act. Don't compromise your integrity for a little money. | ||
| Blake |
>>> By the way I read Timebandit's post by color I think you'd be lucky to find any remnant of color remaining, but I could be wrong. If it's clearly red or green showing on threads, then yes, good enough verification for me!  | ||
| Timebandit |
"I think you'd be lucky to find any remnant of color remaining, but I could be wrong." You're right: you're wrong. It's obvious. Just open up your 1125 and take a look -- oh that's right ... you don't have one. Nevermind. | ||
| Timebandit |
"So replacement of the stator has nothing to do with the removal of this nut, apparently." Right. The rotor nut doesn't have anything to do with the stator ... unless it falls off! The rotor nut holds the rotor onto the engine's crankshaft. It stays on the bike when you remove the ignition cover. The stator is bolted onto the inside of the ignition cover. It comes off with the ignition cover when you remove it from the bike. You don't have to touch the rotor if you're just replacing a dead stator. When it comes to the product liability problem, I thought about the problem, and decided that it was in my best interest to just spend the time putting the right type of threadlocker on my bike when I was in there to do service. When I did the rotor swap, I used the right type of Loctite and made the problem go away. If you know about the problem and you haven't experienced a catastrophic event, then the simplest/most direct solution involves mobilizing a bottle of Loctite 272 and a wrench, not an army of lawyers. In all seriousness, this is not a hard problem to fix. The key to success is knowing about it and taking corrective action. | ||
| Timebandit |
Fitz, if you have ever had a call to H-D Customer Service relating to a previous claim, then you already have a dedicated SPOC rep. I'd be calling them. They're really good at coordinating this sort of thing. If you find out that your dealer has been less than honest, then you should have the work done elsewhere. Don't reward someone with your money if they're not being honest with you. | ||
| Fitz1125 |
I will consider that, bandit. I still can't get anyone to talk to me about this TSB. It's so frustrating | ||
| Timebandit |
consider this -- If *NOBODY* will talk about it, then it may be the subject of a confidentiality / non-disclosure agreement. I'm not surprised that the dealer who may have lied to you about calling H-D can't find any documentation that might help you to get a goodwill settlement from H-D -- he has every reason NOT to produce it. The dealer doesn't want goodwill -- he wants you to pay for the repairs out of pocket at their shop rates, which are higher than H-D warranty rates. More money for him. The dealer has every reason to not want you to be successful in your claim. I'm not at all surprised that he "can't find" the documentation it will take to help you. He has an ulterior motive and a conflict of interest. If you can't find a TSB, just show H-D their own 2009 and 2010 service manuals. The threadlocking service procedure and torque specification both changed in 2010, and they changed for a reason. The 2010 service manual is a de facto admission that the old procedure/specifications were inadequate. (Message edited by timebandit on April 16, 2012) | ||
| Two_seasons |
Timebandit: Would you be willing to work with me during HomeComing, out of my garage, to threadlock and torque to 300 ft/lbs some rotor nuts for our fellow Buellers? I'd be willing to do this if you're interested too. | ||
| Fitz1125 |
Still waiting to hear from the rep from harley. I have a case number now. | ||
| Two_seasons |
I rescind my offer to do other Buellers bikes. My attorney has spoken. But, I would be willing to show others how they could do their own. | ||
| Timebandit |
I think the idea of a homecoming clinic or workshop is a great idea, but as you mentioned, there's the liability problem. Right now this is H-D's liability problem. If you were to work on 50 bikes one weekend, then you'd be transferring a lot of H-D's risk onto you. That's something that's not a good idea unless you're incorporated, unless you've got business liability insurance for doing mechanical work on bikes, and unless you get paid a reasonable amount of money for assuming that risk. All of that PITB legal stuff serves to defeat the objectives of the co-op effort. But I still think it's a good idea if it can be made to work for everyone involved. I suppose that one way around the liability problem would be to show people how it's done, but you could still have problems if you provide advice / instruction and loaner tools -- you're still highly involved in the work, and there's probably some residual liability to worry about. How would your lawyer feel about this if everyone involved signed a release form? That might be a way to get around the liability problems and still meet the co-operative objective. (Message edited by timebandit on April 17, 2012) | ||
| Two_seasons |
This is the way it was expressed to me. "If you were to show others how YOU TOOK YOUR ROTOR NUT OFF YOUR BIKE, then I have no problem with that". I am incorporated, an Scorp actually. However, my business is not working on motorcycles. I'm going to get the stator cover gasket from HD and attempt to do this procedure during HC and would be willing to have others observe me while I do it. Not sure where I'm going to borrow a 300 ft/lb torque wrench from? How much heat will I need? | ||
| Timebandit |
LIABILITY. Showing people how you took the rotor nut off of your bike isn't the liability problem -- the liability problem comes along when you show them how to put the new rotor nut on with the new threadlocker, which amounts to demonstrating how to perform the repair. It's the reassembly that demonstrates "the fix" that has the liability associated with it. If you maintain a hands-off policy on other peoples' bikes you are probably OK. If someone got in over their head and needed hands-on help or tools, then it would probably be a good idea to ask them to sign a liability waiver. HEAT. Heat isn't a major problem. You need high temp to relax the threalocker, but not that much. "The Book" recommends a Robinair heat gun, which is part of H-D's mandatory tool kit. This is one example of where I disagree with the H-D service manual. I have the heat gun, and I consider it to be a blunt instrument -- it blowsUntitled 1 heat all over and heats up everything in the air path. When you blow air into the bowl of the rotor, you're going to be heating everything in the bowl, including the nut, the rotor, and the crankshaft. Instead of the heat gun, I used a handheld cylinder of MAPP gas and a pencil-tipped torch. I applied the pencil-tip directly to each corner of the locking nut for a few seconds, in an effort to heat/expand the nut, while heating the loctite but not heating the crankshaft or the rotor. (Heat is bad for magnetized metals, and you don't want to demag your rotor.) Another option is to just use an air gun to take off the nut. If you have a driver that will exceed 300 ft-lb in reverse then you should be good to go. But be careful -- I think torque-to-failure on the nut is around 450 ft-lb, so you don't want to use high power (600 ft-lb). The guys at EBR told me that they use air to take the nuts off. I used MAPP gas. Took less than a minute. TORQUE WRENCH. The 300 ft-lb torque wrench is a major obstacle for us DIY types. At $600 or so, a quality torque wrench isn't cheap. It tends to be what separates the seriously well-equipped DIY guys from the DIY guys who need to hire a tech for a special purpose job like this one. It's hard to justify the expense if you won't use it a lot. I can't imagine riding up to Wisconsin with one strapped to my bike. The other option is to calculate the lever arm that's needed and apply weights. If you're only doing one bike, a 6-foot horizontal extension with 50 lb hung on the end of it will give you 300 ft-lb. | ||
| Fitz1125 |
UPDATE!!!!!!! East Coast Harley and Harley themselves decided that there's no telling what was damaged in this engine without tearing it up. They decided to replace, FREE OF CHARGE, the entire engine. Out of warranty. Say what you will about Harley, but I'm pretty happy right now. This is the RIGHT call! | ||
| Timebandit |
That's GREAT news. Glad to hear that things are working out for you. Did you mention the loctite issue to them? Just wondering if that might have helped. | ||
| Fitz1125 |
I did mention the loctite issue. The thing I repeated a few times in conversation was "Warranty or no, there's no good reason why a rotor nut should back off on its own with 7k miles." I basically was nice, polite, and said that I expected Harley to stand by the product they produced, even though they are no longer producing it. Apparently they agreed. | ||
| Robissimo |
Congrats Fitz. I hope you keep the bike for a little while longer after you get it fixed up. | ||
| Fitz1125 |
Rob, i had gone back and forth on selling it. I'm still not sure, but I may keep it for a while longer. I want something more comfy for me and the wife. Concours, FJR, ST1300, etc.... But who knows. | ||
| Timebandit |
that's truly a great outcome. you're right -- this demonstrates that even though H-D gets bashed a lot on the buell forums, they're a stand-up company that will take care of you in a situation like this one. I imagine that they're going to want to take your old engine in exchange. to bury the body, so to speak. you lucky dog -- now you're getting an engine that has the oil level sight glass! the only other thing I'd suggest is getting the EBR oiling rotor upgrade to protect your brand new stator. | ||
| Fitz1125 |
Bandit, i do plan on doing that upgrade , but it may have to wait a while. I just replaced my wife's work computer and paid for AC repairs as well! lol So, for 2010, the nut issue was fixed? I didn't even think about the fact that a "new motor" meant a NEW MOTOR. The sight glass is a definite plus. I'm telling you... my touring bike plans didn't include looking at harleys. They may now. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm glad they did the right thing here. Good news. | ||
| Timebandit |
The rotor swap will cost you about $200. $175 for the rotor exchange, maybe $25 for shipping. Since you've just saved so much on the engine repair, $200 has got to be looking pretty good right now! I would not put off the rotor exchange any longer than you have to -- delaying only puts thermal wear on your stator. Maybe you could work out some sort of deal with the local shop to do the rotor exchange for you while they're doing the engine swap. Labor shouldn't cost all that much -- certainly an hour or less -- and I think it's better to have everything done at once if there's any way you can swing it. Oh man, I am so glad that you had the technical information with you when you went to negotiate. Without it you might not have done so well. (Message edited by timebandit on April 17, 2012) | ||
| Fitz1125 |
Yes, I'm glad also. I will do the rotor upgrade, but there's absolutely ZERO room in the budget this month. It may have to wait until next month. | ||
| Timebandit |
"my touring bike plans didn't include looking at harleys. They may now." I noticed that you didn't mention BMW on your short list. I started off with an FXRS-CONV for my first "sport-touring" bike. I like it so much that I kept it when I bought my BMW R1100RS, and as I've added new bikes to the stable, I've never even considered getting rid of it. As it turns out, that old EVO-based FXR has been the most reliable bike I've ever owned. H-D makes quality products and they do stand behind them. And they're made in America. In spite of the laughs that they get about being low-tech, touring on a properly equipped Harley can be a lot of fun and IME they're very reliable. I'd definitely think about them if you go shopping. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Good News! | ||
| Fitz1125 |
I'm really considering a GL1500... bulletproof motor, good amenities, prices plummeting. Also voyagers, ventures, etc. Maybe even something like a VTX | ||
| Froggy |
The Ulysses is a good and cheap choice if you don't mind the air cooled lump. |
