| Author | Message | ||||
     Fitz1125 |
Rotor nut backed off on its own. Bits and pieces, metal shavings, nastiness EVERYWHERE. Gears and stuff all look ok. Aluminum foil-ish stuff in tatters all around the inside of the rotor. Stator is destroyed How screwed am I? Is there ANY chance HD would take care of this gratis? Bike only has 7k miles! If anyone has any ideas, email me. thefitzvh@gmail.com (Message edited by Fitz1125 on April 12, 2012) | ||||
| Daggar |
I think you're pretty screwed. Did the engine sound funny before the nut came off? I've been told it makes an unmistakable sound when it's loose. | ||||
| Darth_villar |
Call customer service, and call your local dealer, you never know. I would exhaust all options talking with customer service and dealers and such before you do anything drastic. | ||||
| Bartone |
Is the damage only localized to the Stator area? or even further in? If the dealership wont cover anything, buy the EBR kit | ||||
| Fitz1125 |
Damage APPEARS to be localized to just the stator area. Thought about getting stator rebuilt by Ricks or somewhere, and rotor mod from EBR..... but I don't know if the rotor is too damaged. Stator appears to have chewed up WIRES but the metal is all intact. I thought about the EBR kit. It's a LOT of cash... not sure yet. I'll update the thread with pics tomrrow. I'm also not sure if i have the harness upgrade. (Message edited by Fitz1125 on April 13, 2012) | ||||
| Timebandit |
You've got a 2008, right? Because of this exact problem, I've spent a lot of time researching threadlockers, and I spent a fair amount of time talking to people whose names I won't mention about threadlockers and the rotor nut problem. I wanted to be damned sure that when I installed my 1190RS rotor that I wouldn't suffer the catastrophic failures that I'd heard about. IIRC the 2008 bikes used the green loctite 648 on the rotor nut, which isn't even a threadlocker -- it's actually a retaining compound. the problem is that 648 loses it's strength as heat increases, it becomes brittle, and it begins to fracture into shards. It's rated for 350*F, and at 200*C it's only got about 1/3 of the strength that it has at 22*C. The bottom line is that 648 was a very poor choice of a retaining compound for a stator that produces as much heat as the 1125. The failures of 648 suggest that your bike was built with the wrong product for the rotor nut application. (See attached data sheet.)
It is common knowledge that there have been a LOT of rotor nut retention failures where the 648 fractures and the stator nut gets loose. That causes on hell of a clatter in the left side case, and if you hear noise and fail to shut the motor down right away then the consequences can be catastrophic. I think at least one member of this forum was seriously injured because of this. EBR's official word on this is that they have experienced lots of rotor nuts coming loose "in bikes that are subjected to sustained high RPM applications (racing environments)." That's pretty much an exact quote of what several different people had to say on the subject. Talk to anyone at EBR and they'll probably respond to you by reciting that exact phrase. My personal take on this is that they can't say what they want to say. People who know the answer have told me, "I can't speak to that subject." The result is that they have to reply using a prepared/rehearsed answer when you start asking pointed questions about heat-induced rotor nut failures. Take that for what it's worth, but this smells like a canned response to a question that's covered by a non-disclosure agreement. My personal interpretation is that the official comment is code for saying, "stator nuts fall off when bikes get hot enough for the loctite 648 to fail." It's interesting to note that in the wake of the thermally induced rotor nut failures, the crankshaft nut threadlocker specification was changed in 2009 or 2010, so that it now requires a high temperature red threadlocker that's rated for both 450*F and bolts that are over 1" diameter/M25. The *only* threadlocker that meets all of these the specifications is Loctite 272. Loctite 648 doesn't fit the bill, and no Permatex product fits both the thread diameter and temperature specifications. See attached data sheet.
If you're out of warranty you're probably out of luck unless you are willing to litigate. What they'll probably tell you is that you should have read some TSB that described the problem, and followed it's recommendation to change Loctite 648 to Loctite 272 to avoid the problem. Unless there's a high dollar personal injury lawsuit, I predict that H-D's response will involve stonewalling. But it's worth a shot. If I were in your shoes, I would make the argument that the choice to manufacture your bike using a retaining compound such as 648 instead of a high temperature, large diameter threadlocker such as Loctite 272 was an engineering failure due to negligence on the part of BMC/H-D or Rotax. Be ready to sue them and be prepared for them to say that you ignored the warnings to upgrade to threadlocker to 272, and that you failed to shut the bike down when it got noisy. Realistically speaking, this is fertile ground for both a product liability lawsuit and an NHTSA complaint; the choice of the wrong rotor nut threadlocker will cause rotor nut retention failure, and that could kill someone. I wouldn't continue to ride a bike that uses 648 on the rotor nut. After I studied the problem, I removed my old rotor nut, threw it away, cleaned the 648 off of my crankshaft using appropriate solvents and a wire brush, and then installed a new rotor nut with Loctite 272. I suggest that everyone else do the same. JD, you reading this thread? | ||||
| Avalaugh |
That's just put the fear of god in me  Is there no way this will become an official recall issue ? | ||||
| Fitz1125 |
Mine is a 2009. I'm gonna make some calls here in a bit UPDATE: Local harley service manager says he has a bit of leverage, wants to try to get it taken care of, and won't charge me for the attempt. (Message edited by Fitz1125 on April 13, 2012) | ||||
| Froggy |
Work with your dealer and Harley Customer Support, you got a 50/50 chance of them fixing it based on what I've seen them do in the past. I've seen them swap a whole motor on a XB a year out of warranty a while back, but other times tell the customer to pound sand. | ||||
| Redcrrider |
So were you racing? Was it making noise? Should I remove my rotor nut and find a 300 ft lb torque wrench to borrow? | ||||
| Fitz1125 |
I was not racing , was just on my way to meet some friends for ice cream | ||||
| Timebandit |
It's good news that your dealer is willing to go to bat for you. That helps a lot. In my limited experience in dealing with HD Customer Support (one event) it definitely paid to do the research and to have the ducks lined up before calling them. Then, if you've got good documentation, what it takes to succeed is to have one of the higher-ups become interested in your problem. If you can get one of the higher-ups interested, you'll do a lot better. In my one time dealing with HDCS things went well. I had amassed a large pile of documentation that made my case for me. My dealer told me that he was contacted during the decision making process by one specific person who was pretty high up in the corporation, that that person had become interested in my problem, and that the only reason that things worked out for me was because someone who could make a difference became interested in my case. Having good technical information to support your case is helpful. In addition to the data sheets I've cited, it would be really helpful if your dealer could provide you with a copy of the TSB regarding loctite on the rotor nuts before you get started. | ||||
| Fitz1125 |
Did that tsb apply to 2009s? Got a link? | ||||
| Timebandit |
your dealer has it. | ||||
| Fitz1125 |
I just called the service manager and let him know. He said he'd look it up. He sounded optimistic. | ||||
| Dktechguy112 |
So 2009 and 2010 bikes have the upgraded thread locker(272)? My bike is 2009 with a 2010 engine, am I ok? Do you have the TSB number? | ||||
| Timebandit |
"So 2009 and 2010 bikes have the upgraded thread locker(272)?" that's not even close to what i said. | ||||
| Dktechguy112 |
Timebandit, Can you fill me in? "It's interesting to note that in the wake of the thermally induced rotor nut failures, the crankshaft nut threadlocker specification was changed in 2009 or 2010, so that it now requires a high temperature red threadlocker that's rated for both 450*F and bolts that are over 1" diameter/M25. The *only* threadlocker that meets all of these the specifications is Loctite 272." While you didn't say that BMC used 272, I thought it was implied, as 272 is the only thread locker that meets the specs. What I'm trying to find out is what thread locker was used on my 2010 engine, and is it sufficient? | ||||
| Afhans |
My bike is the shop (yet again under warranty) right now having the clutch weeping fixed. Think I can just tell them to check the rotor nut while they have it? Or do I need to say I think I heard a new noise or something? | ||||
| Timebandit |
What I said was that if the OP had a 2008 then his bike would be effected, that my 2009 was effected, and that the decision to change was made in 2009 or 2010. That's all the information that I provided. I intentionally said NOTHING about production dates. This is a serious problem. Pull the cover off your bike and take a look. (Message edited by timebandit on April 14, 2012) | ||||
| Dktechguy112 |
Timebandit, I live at the dorms at my college, so I do not have access to the space and tools or the time to pop the stator cover off the bike. I'm curious if anyone knows the date that this new thread locker took effect at the factory. | ||||
| Timebandit |
I don't know the date that the change took effect in production, but I would bet my bike that all 2009 bikes were built with 648. I've never seen a 2009 that didn't have 648 in it. The spec was changed to 272 for the 2010 model year. The 2010 service manual, which was actually published mid-2009, reflects the change. But don't rely on this and assume that your 2010 motor has the right threadlocker. It's possible that you could have 272, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. Best approach is to pop the cover and look. Not having a garage and tools isn't that much of a liability in this case. Removing the case cover involves taking off the hall effect sensor (one bolt), and then removing a dozen or so M6 Torx bolts. Remove them, pull like hell on the stator cover, leaving the gasket behind, and rotate the stator cover off to the right side while you look at the rotor nut. You may spill a little oil, but that's all it takes. then put it all back together. I've done it in 20 minutes in a driveway, and the EBR guys have fixed this problem in the paddock at races. You should be able to do it at school without a problem. All you really need is the Torx bit. HTH (Message edited by timebandit on April 16, 2012) | ||||
| Mcelhaney14 |
Devin, if you want the check your stator nut you are more than welcome to use my garage and tools. I'm just 4 miles away from cal poly. I've talked to you before, I'm the guy with the sunfire yellow X1. | ||||
| Blake |
>>> Best approach is to pop the cover and look. How do you tell what thread locker was employed by looking? | ||||
| Davefl |
By the way I read Timebandit's post by color.. if it is green it is 648 and needs to be replaced. if it is red then good to go.(but I could be wrong, all I have is 5 tube frame bikes and 1 XB what do I know  ) | ||||
| Fitz1125 |
I should be hearing from the dealer today or tomorrow. I'll update the thread. Thanks, bandit, for the info | ||||
| Kruizen |
No on color, there is a red - I think 271 - that is for smaller diamete bolts/threads. The 272 is for larger diameter bolts. | ||||
| Fitz1125 |
Shenanigans are afoot. Dealer calls back , says "harley said no goodwill" and wanted to know what i wanted to do. I told them I wanted to talk to harley. Harley representative said the dealer has not contacted them. Had a record of a claim a year ago when my regulator went bad... nothing for this issue. No contact whatsoever. the harley rep is calling the dealer now | ||||
| Fitz1125 |
I can't find this TSB online, and the Dealer says he doesn't see it... anyone have a copy of it? | ||||
| Reepicheep |
Shenanigans or simple incompetance. I wouldn't put it past many dealers to fake a call back to the factory (I think they get paid less for this kind of work when it is under warranty), and I wouldn't put it past Harley to not be able to find its ass with both hands and to have made a decision in your case already and not be able to find record of it. Either works to your advantage though. Sure seems like the kind of situation Harley should goodwill. But it's sure going to cost them a fortune to do it. You only need "yes" once, so the fact that you can ask again is good news. |
648 Data Sheet