G oog le Buell 1125R Forum | Login/out | Topics | Search | Custodians | Register | Edit Profile


Buell Forum » 1125R Superbike Board » Archive through January 20, 2012 » Hot Oil Check vs. Cold Oil Check « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Timebandit
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 01:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, I know... another thread about oil checks.

By now most of us know that you can get widely different results when performing a hot oil check vs. a cold oil check.

It's been pretty common for people to report that a normal/full hot oil check results in a follow-up cold oil check where there's nothing on the dipstick, yet some people report hot/cold oil checks that show full when hot, and low-normal on the dispstick when cold.

I've had both happen, and it's always annoyed me that the cold checks are so inconsistent. It's taken me some time to figure out what I think is going on.

I've noticed on a couple of occasions that I get different results depending upon whether or not the fills/checks are performed on level ground or on a rear paddock stand. I think that my Pitbull rear stand rotates the engine forward enough to change the oil level on a cold check so that the level appears higher than when the bike is on flat ground. It's been a while since I've done an oil change, but I seem to remember that when on the paddock stand, oil reaches the low/normal level on the dipstick instead of missing the dipstick altogether.

Has anyone else noticed this? Maybe the only reason I've noticed this is because I was performing my oil checks while sitting in the driveway, before I bought the paddock stand. Or is this just my imagination?


(Message edited by timebandit on January 03, 2012)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jdugger
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Having the bike on stands or less than perfectly level ground will definitely change any readings!

Personally, I just just the "dump 3 quarts" and don't worry about it approach.

If there's any question, drop the oil, dump 3 quarts, and return to not worrying about it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stirz007
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 02:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From an undisclosed source within an undisclosed development/manufacturing organization:

"Oil change procedure: Drain oil (both drain plugs), pull filter, pull filter screen. New filter, add three quarts, and don't bother checking level.

If in doubt at any time about oil level, follow the above process. Trying to follow the OE oil level checking process is such a PITA that we just drain it, and refill. It turns out to be faster, and then there is never any question. Too much oil, it sumps, and kills power quite a bit. The crank starts slinging it around, which can hurt the bottom end, bearings, etc."
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tbowdre
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

mine is always checked on a pitbull stand. When hot it is full and when cold it just touches the dipstick.

everytime
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Timebandit
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 02:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

tbowdre, that's helpful. it confirms my on-stand observations.

part of the inconsistency problem i had noted was because i had gotten used to doing my checks in the driveway, sitting on the bike before/after rides. when i bought the pitbull stand i noticed the results changed. results were definitely different on-stand vs. off-stand. i'd often perform a hot check on the ground at the end of a ride, and a cold check on the stand i the morning. probably best to just do all the checks on the stand. results will be more consistent that way.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Timebandit
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 02:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

JD, Stirz, thanks for the advice.

I am familiar with the "Dump add 3" rule. Obviously, it makes sense for racers to do that. Racers change oil pretty frequently.

I've had my street bike for one season. I can count the number of times that I've changed oil on one hand.

I haven't done "Dump Add 3" on my street bike because I've had concerns about overfilling for the reasons that Stirz mentioned. I've found that changing oil + filter, both plugs, I only have to add 2650 cc on an oil change (3 quarts minus 250cc) to reach the Overfill mark. So I've always been reluctant to add that last 250cc.

Following the "factory recommended" change procedure, I haven't been pulling the oil strainer from the bottom of the case when doing my oil changes. I imagine that by not doing that I might be leaving some residual oil in the case. How much? I don't know.

I have been reluctant to do the "Dump Add 3" for a few reasons:

1. I find it tough for one guy to completely drain the oil when complying with the manual's oil change procedure, which is kind of convoluted: Put the bike in the paddock stand, drain oil, remove from paddock stand, tilt left, tilt right, place back in paddock stand. That's allegedly what it takes to get all the oil out. For me it's been simpler to just put it in the paddock stand, drain both sides without tilting, and add 2650cc.

Does dropping the strainer assembly (screen) while in a paddock stand release much more oil? Does it eliminate the need for tilting? If so, that extra step might simplify things a lot.

2. Following the factory procedure, an oil change with the addition of only 2650cc puts me at the overfill line. I don't want to start frothing and puking through the breather, so I've been reluctant to add 3 quarts because the numbers suggest that by following the factory drain recommendations, I'm not completely evacuating the old oil .

3. There are some open threads with unanswered questions about running oil levels high, and whether this results in any oil contamination of the intakes at high RPM. Maybe you Dump Add 3 guys could answer this question. It sounds like if you're dropping the screen to get all of the oil out, Adding 3 isn't a problem.


(Message edited by timebandit on January 03, 2012)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stirz007
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Time - I hope my post didn't come off as "preachy" - that wasn't the intent. My 1125 was street ridden for a year or two before moving over to the dark side (track only duty), so I understand your pain...

When you pull the bottom screen, you get about another half cup of oil (100 ml or so), plus it's a good practice to see if any junk or metal bits are showing up there. But it can require muffler removal - maybe a bit much for an oil change (I'd recommend you drop the screen once a year regardless of the hassle)

I've found that the 1125 doesn't use much oil unless you pound it. Before track duty, I would drain all the oil and measure to make sure I was getting close to what I had put in and found it was usually pretty close.

The OEM check procedure is a PITA, and as Jim said, you have to be almost perfectly level to get a good reading - hard to do unless you have front and rear stands.

Finally, I have not found the "rock back and forth" procedure to be necessary, FWIW.

I will say this - removing the kick stand has made my oil change life much easier..

(Message edited by Stirz007 on January 03, 2012)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Timebandit
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 04:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

thanks. I am running the stock exhaust, so pulling the screen with every oil change might be more trouble than it's worth. i'll add it to my to-do list for the winter maintenance cycle though.

with the paddock stand i have been able to make the hot checks a lot more repeatable -- to the point that it looks like i haven't lost any oil over the most recent 3000 mile change interval with some energetic riding. that surprised me, as the accessories i've added to de-buzz the bars have decreased the buzzy feedback so effectively that now it's become harder for me to gauge RPM with my hands. without the buzz i've hit the rev limiter going from 6k with WOT more times than i care to admit. this has made me wonder about frothing up the oil if the fill was too high.

with the Dump Add 3 changes, do you track guys find any problems with oil finding it's way out through the breather at high RPM? it would really help to know if i could do a no-tip oil change in the paddock stands, without a screen pull, adding 3 Qts, and not worry about blowing oil out of the breather at high RPM.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jdugger
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 05:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The bike will spray a little oil if the level is high. If you use the dump-3 fill method, you really do need to drop the screen to make sure the bike is really drained well.

Also, be sure you are dumping three QUARTS not 3 liters. Seems like a stupid thing, but if you are running Motul 300V, it's sold by the liter.

To be honest, I pour slightly less than 3Q. Basically, I pour until the bottle slows and then move to the next quart. So, I'm probably pouring more like 2.9Q.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Timebandit
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

paying attention to quarts/liters does matter. first the metric conversions:
1.0 Qt = 965cc
2.9 Qt = 2798cc
3.0 Qt = 2895cc

i looked at my log book. here are the numbers from my last oil change:

rear pitbull stand, front wheel on ground: drain both sides, remove filter, leave screen alone. no tipping from side to side. go have lunch while the oil drains out.

I start with use 3 quarts, draining them completely, but I have been using all but 250cc from the 3rd quart. total volume of oil added is 2645cc.

965cc + 965cc + (965cc 250cc) = 2645cc.

2645cc (3Q - 250cc) puts me 3/4 of the way to the FULL line on a hot-check on level pavement; on the rear stand the bike tips forward enough that I get a FULL reading in the rear paddock stand with front tire on the ground. It looks like this puts me in the right spot.

2770cc (3Q - 125cc) puts me at FULL on level pavement and at OVERFILL on the rear paddock stand.

Still not sure whether the OVERFILL mark in a paddock stand is bad, as that corresponds to FULL on level pavement.

Right now I'm thinking that the right number when performing a level drain in a paddock stand without pulling the screen is going to be the higher level, 3Q minus 125 cc. That corresponds to OVERFILL on the dipstick on the stand, or FULL on level pavement.

If Stirz's estimate of 125cc being retained by the screen is accurate, then the numbers would be in complete agreement with JD's observations that you just drop the screen and Add 3 Qt.

I could probably just Add 3Qt, or 2895cc without dropping the screen and not worry too much about spray. But for now it seems that 3 quarts minus 125 to 250cc is working well enough. I'll know more when I take a peek at the intakes.

Thanks guys.


(Message edited by timebandit on January 03, 2012)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sparky
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

FWIW, I check oil level with the rear tire on the ground and the bike supported on its axle stand spindles with jack stands that just fit under them. The bike remains vertical thusly and is easy to do cold or hot checks.

Cold checks that show up with oil registering at the tip of the dip stick as a 1/8" blob usually wind up as around the last "L" of FULL after a short ride and the 4 min on/off routine.

I'd say that if you're using a stand that raises the rear tire off the ground that you are deviating from the prescribed procedure and you'd need to verify what the acceptable mark on the dip stick is for future reference, if you're going to use the dip stick to check.

I'm not going to bother with keeping track of how much oil I or the dealer has put in, that's all. YMMV.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Two_seasons
Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think the bottom line is, what ever method you do use for checking/draining, make sure your routine that you settle on is done the same way again and again.

The attention to detail from the posters above are extremely helpful to this subject.

Thanks guys.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Craigsmoney
Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

removing the screen is a good idea, I just removed mine and found bits of rubber and plastic in it. I did some investigation and found the bits of rubber were from the rubber gasket for the spark plug hole in the valve cover was in the head rubbing the camshaft, and the plastic??? I'm hoping it's from when the cam guides were replaced.

Anyway, it's a good idea to remove that screen, at least every 10000 km's.

Cheers
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Thefleshrocket
Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The screen is a new one on me.. to drain the oil, I've been securing the bike on a lift (both wheels on the ground, bike completely vertical) and just removing the bolt on the right side, the center drain bolt, and the filter cover on the left. I just let it sit until it's done draining.

My '08, when the oil gets low (and by low, I mean probably somewhere around 2.5 quarts), the oil pressure light will occasionally come on very briefly during hard braking. I found this out because I had the clutch weep fix done by the dealer and the dealer apparently didn't add any oil to replace what drained out when they removed the clutch cover. After getting the bike back, I noticed the periodic oil pressure light. At that point, I did a "dump, add 3" oil change and the oil pressure light has never returned. I mostly commute with my bike but it sees the occasional high-rpm backroad usage. I've never had any issues with oil coming out the breather, foaming up, etc. I probably should check the oil level, as I didn't bother doing so after the "dump, add 3" oil change. If there is some screen I was supposed to remove, it's certainly possible that it's a little overfull.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Phlegm
Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2012 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Are you guys changing the gasket on the oil screen cover when you dump the oil from the strainer? I'm pretty sure I would have to order it and I don't want to wait another 3 or 4 days if it's not that important.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zac4mac
Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2012 - 08:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's a flat belt type seal and I did re-use one the first first time I checked it.
I replaced it with a new one about a month later.
I have a Drummer on Loretta, so it's a little easier.

Just happen to be looking at one in the bag -
R0007.1AM
dimension is 6x1.5x3.5mm

Z
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Timebandit
Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2012 - 08:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

do you remember it's price?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ratbuell
Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2012 - 08:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My God, you people worry entirely too much.

Dump it.

Change filters, O-rings, etc.

Fill it with the prescribed amount.

IMMEDIATELY note the dipstick level...AND the method in which the reading was taken (on stand, off stand, hot, cold, whatever).

DUPLICATE those conditions every time you check the oil. If the level fluctuates...add an appropriate amount to bring it back to where it was when you KNOW how much you just put in the engine.

Oh - and this is the most important step - DON'T FORGET TO GO RIDE THE DAMN THING!!!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stirz007
Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2012 - 09:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The bottom screen o-ring is reusable.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Timebandit
Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 08:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do you have specs for replacement o-rings? I need to order a bunch of miscellaneous supplies and it would be handy to add the oil strainer o-ring to the list.

Instead of buying them one at a time from a dealer I'd like to just order a bag of 50 from McMaster-Carr.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dktechguy112
Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The dump and add 3 rule only works on 08 and 09's. 2010's hold more oil due to modifications to the engine.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Duphuckincati
Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 09:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"2010's hold more oil due to modifications to the engine."
??Inquiring minds want to know.

And I put mine up on both stands, oil level is just a bit below "overfill" cold and right at "full" hot, about 5 minutes after turning off. Makes me feel good.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Timebandit
Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

DK, I have to ask -- why do you think that anyone who has a bike with a sightglass would bother to read a thread about checking levels with a dipstick?
« Previous Next »

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Password:
E-mail:
Options: Post as "Anonymous" (Valid reason required. Abusers will be exposed. If unsure, ask.)
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Rules | Program Credits Administration