| Author | Message | ||
     Philp |
I'm one of the "light" riders here who had trouble getting proper front end sag on my 1125R (~23 mm with preload all the way out). I have actually been pretty comfortable with the bike on most curves; however, never really comfortable on the very tight turns or with low speed maneuverability. So, I broke open my piggy bank and had the local track side suspension company put in some Race Tech springs (.95 kg), which now give me proper sag with a few turns in. The result? "Eh" The bike perhaps feels a little better in the curves but there is no real improvement in tight turns, slow or fast. When I got the bike home and was moving it around, I did take notice of how heavy the wheel is to turn when the bike is sitting still. This is a huge contrast with my Guzzi, which turns lightly and effortlessly at a stand still. I checked the 1125 with the front end in the air: it turns fine and I'm pretty content it is not the bearings. So I got to looking and comparing specs, and came to recall that the Buell is only a 22 deg rake, resulting in 3.3" of trail. Um, that puts a lot of weight in the front and explains why it wants to flap over doing tight U-turns. Then I looked and found that Eric must have come to realize the same thing as the 1190 being produced now is 22 deg rake but still only 3.4" trail. By comparison, my Guzzi is 25.3 deg rake for ~4.6" trail. Now I realize that it's a sport tourer. So for sport bike comparison, the Ninja 1000 is 24.5 deg and 4" trail. I've ridden one and it just feels right - easy to handle, at least for me. Look at the R1, CBR, Ducs, etc. and they're all about the same Anybody else think the 1125r could benefit from a triple tree with a little more rake to get more trail, which is what I think is needed. Is anybody making one? Sorry if this has been covered. | ||
| Jdugger |
Raise the front 5mm. (5mm less tube showing above the triple.) | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
What Jdugger said. I have only the cap itself showing above the top of the triple. The top of the triple is flush with the seam where the cap connects to the fork. Also, get some Pilot Power 2CTs. Handling and responsiveness are significantly improved. | ||
| Duphuckincati |
I thought it was 21 degrees, which is steeper than anything else I could find, including observed trials machines. And yes, put the tubes flush at top. Noticeable difference. Still, these have unique handling, as do Guzzi's. Takes a few thousand miles to get tuned in to either of them. Had a V7 Sport for 12 years. I got good on it! Had to wring its neck though to get it to really go fast. | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
Michelins helped me alot as well. Turn in felt akward to me with the pirellis | ||
| Philp |
I've had the tubes flush since about 1000 mi. - currently at 3000 now. I like the Pirelli Angels that I run on the Norge but when the current set of Diablos are through, I'm open to changing. I still think this has more to do with the tight trail. How much does making the tubes flush change the trail? | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
I don't think so to your question. This is how EB designed the bike. Perhaps a different bike then, like XB12Ss, with a slight more angle and more comfortable setting. | ||
| Dannybuell |
At the highest stress point in the turn will it turn in or does it want to push out, understeer? | ||
| Nuts4mc |
possibly more sag in the rear may help????? see here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/618487.html?1302479534 the bike handles like a Schwinn - learn to love it! | ||
| Nuts4mc |
front fork height discussion: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/622721.html?1301367621 | ||
| Rogue_biker |
The 1125R is one of those bikes that actually is very good at low speeds. Using the correct tire profile, it absolutely does NOT like to fall into turns. One of Buell's design parameters since the beginning was mass centralization, which gives his bikes a very low polar moment of inertia. That means it stays pretty neutral going from one lean angle to the next. My XB exhibited this habit, and the 1125R is the same. Most of today's modern bikes have chassis that are tuned for a specific tire profile. If you put a tire that is not compatible (tire with more of a V-profile or less of a V-profile), your bike will either exhibit a tendency to flop into turns or have a slow rate of turn, and sometimes have a tendency to standing up under braking. I have the Bridgestone BT016's on my 1125R and before that I used the same tires on my XB12R. Both bikes had zero tendency to flop into turns. Both were also very easy to maneuver at low speeds, making tight U-turns, etc. They both have very linear steering and which makes them easy to ride in tight, twisty roads. My suspicion is your have the wrong tire profile for your bike, and/or something is screwy with your suspension set up for it to want to flop into turns the way you said it does. (Message edited by rogue_biker on September 16, 2011) | ||
| Philp |
What I experience are the following: *The only way the bike feels stable in turns is if I hang over. Even for mid to slower speed turns. It doesn't have a stable feeling in the front end if I lean with the bike while sitting square in the seat. *I also have noticed that the bike doesn't like to counter steer like I am used to. Pushing on the handle bar doesn't easily force the bike in the direction I want to go. It's almost like it's fighting me; however if I pull the handle bar at the same time, it's more obedient. *At really slow speed (nearly stopped), like when I'm turning out of my driveway or doing tight u-turns, the front wheel "flops" in the direction of my turn. Is this what y'all experience? | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
This sounds like the same complaint I had when I got my 1125. I really feel like your describing a tire profile preference. I took my pirellis off before they were 1/2 tread because I disliked the turn in and swapped to 2cts. Massive improvement for me. I now run PR3 which I would also highly recommend. Handle just like a 2ct but last twice as long. | ||
| Philp |
I guess I'll try tires next - should cost the same as what I spent on the new spring installation, ~$400. If that doesn't get it I'll probably sell the R for a bike I'm more comfortable on. I figure I'll sell it for trade-in value to someone here. I'd rather see one of the good folks on this board get a deal rather than a stealer.. ahem, dealer. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. | ||
| Rsh |
Your comments are what Sport Rider Magazine noted when they first tested the 1125R. Test rider weight was 150Lbs. This is what Sport Rider did to did to make it easier to live with. SUGGESTED SUSPENSION SETTINGS FRONT Spring preload: 12 turns out from full stiff; rebound damping: 3 turns out from full stiff; compression damping: 2 turns out from full stiff; ride height: set fork tubes flush with triple clamps REAR Spring preload: position 5 from full soft; rebound damping: 4 turns out from full stiff; compression damping: 20 clicks out from full stiff. In your case you have already done the difficult part of sliding the fork tubes. The other adjustments are easy, and something to try while waiting for fork springs. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
What I experience are the following: *The only way the bike feels stable in turns is if I hang over. Even for mid to slower speed turns. It doesn't have a stable feeling in the front end if I lean with the bike while sitting square in the seat. *I also have noticed that the bike doesn't like to counter steer like I am used to. Pushing on the handle bar doesn't easily force the bike in the direction I want to go. It's almost like it's fighting me; however if I pull the handle bar at the same time, it's more obedient. *At really slow speed (nearly stopped), like when I'm turning out of my driveway or doing tight u-turns, the front wheel "flops" in the direction of my turn. Is this what y'all experience? Your bike's suspension set up is screwed up big time. It's so screwed up that it's dangerous to ride. Who set it up? No bike handles like that unless something is VERY WRONG. No amount of spring/damping adjustment is going to change those handling problems. It is a geometry issue. I suspect that your front end is set up way higher than the rear. Put the fork tubes back to its original OEM position ASAP! | ||
| Tmchcrk |
What I experience are the following: *The only way the bike feels stable in turns is if I hang over. Even for mid to slower speed turns. It doesn't have a stable feeling in the front end if I lean with the bike while sitting square in the seat. *I also have noticed that the bike doesn't like to counter steer like I am used to. Pushing on the handle bar doesn't easily force the bike in the direction I want to go. It's almost like it's fighting me; however if I pull the handle bar at the same time, it's more obedient. *At really slow speed (nearly stopped), like when I'm turning out of my driveway or doing tight u-turns, the front wheel "flops" in the direction of my turn. Is this what y'all experience? Interesting My R does almost exactly the same as thing. I have the suspension settings set to the factory recommended positions. Except I'm all the way soft on the rear pre-load. I weight about 185-195 depending on what I wear and if i throw my back pack on. I definitely get the front wheel "flop" at low u-turn speeds. I get a slow(hard) turn in feel (in the twistys at speed) compared to other bikes I have ridden. So a suggestion might be to change the front pre-load to soften up the front end. Rear sag is about 28-30, front sag is 35-37. Assuming I'm measuring correctly as demonstrated by some videos recommended here. I should probably get a metric measuring tape to do these measurements. My combo tape my not be completely accurate | ||
| Dannybuell |
#1 Tuning with bad fork oil is an exercise in futility. Is the fork and shock oil fresh and NOT spent/sludge? Buell recommends fork oil service at 12,000 miles. Racers have MUCH more frequent servicing schedules. #2 RE: the slow rise 'where did the front end go' feeling. Less rebound damping will take that feeling away, it comes back faster. #3 Compression damping slows the rate of compression, it doesn't collapse so fast in the first place. #4 A good front to rear preload balance gives a neutral bike that will turn in or out throughout the turn. At the highest stress point in the turn will it turn in or does it want to push out, understeer? | ||
| Philp |
In my original post, I guess I didn't make it clear that the fluid was changed with the spring swap - it was. The bike has only 3k mi. regardless. I would argue that the odd characteristics are more a function of the incredibly steep rake and short trail. At 21 deg, the rake is ~3 deg less than most other sport/superbikes and the trail is only 3.3", which is ~3/4" shorter (or 19%). From what I've read, going less than 3.5" of trail starts giving the front end "shopping cart" characteristics. And like mentioned previously, Buell has increased the rake/trail (nominally) on the 1190's, which makes me wonder if the issue is recognized and they're working to fix it without increasing the wheelbase too much. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
The resistance to turning and tendency to have the front steering "flop" down into very slow turns is a problem with geometry/ride height mismatch. Someone somewhere screwed up the set up on your bikes. If your front end sits higher than the rear, that will do it. If you set your suspension sag according to the factory recommended height for F&R, and your bike is still doing the resistance to turning/flopping into turns at slow speeds, the problem is the F to R ride height. Did someone move your forks from its original position in the triple clamp? In general, raising the rear/lowering the front end will quicken your steering. Raising the front end/lowering the rear will slow down your steering and in extreme cases will create that flopping down into turns at slow speeds. The bottom line is there is NOTHING inherently wrong with the bike's rake/trail as it came from the factory. I test road about three 1125R's before I bought the one I have. All of them had NONE of the resistance to turning/flopping that you guys described. That was BEFORE I did any suspension tuning to adjust sag/preload/damping to suit my weight. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Switch to the PP 2CTs. If you still have handling issues, come back and post about it for more advice. I'll put my money on you being a lot happier with the bike. I spent a couple thousand miles trying to tune the suspension on my 1125 including the fork tube height adjustment. I switched to the PP 2CTs at 2400 miles, and with no other changes to my existing suspension settings, the bike went from uncooperative to nearly telepathic. The difference was huge. | ||
| Pwillikers |
Tires make a very big difference on the handling of this bike. I'd been frustrated trying to get my '09 cr to turn in and maintain a line. It required way too much effort to initiate a turn and constant counter steer to maintain a line mid turn. In preparation for the first track day, at 5K miles, I replaced the Pirellis with Michelin Pilot Power 2CTs. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! With the Michelins, turn in is light and effortless and mid turn lines are maintained with no hands. I should have tossed the Pirellis the day I bought it. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
That's strange because I've had the Corsa III's, the Diablo Rossos, and now the BT016's on mine. They all perform very similar--light steering, no tendency to stand up under braking, no flopping into turns, no constant steering input to maintain an arc through a turn. | ||
| Philp |
"That's strange because I've had the Corsa III's, ...They all perform very similar--light steering, no tendency to stand up under braking, no flopping into turns, no constant steering input to maintain an arc through a turn." Rogue, if you don't mind sharing, how much do you weigh? | ||
| Rogue_biker |
I weigh 200 lbs. With gear probably closer to 210. I just rode my 1125R in the mountains this weekend. She still has her BT016's. Confirm, light steering, no tendency to stand up under braking, no flopping into turns, no constant steering input to maintain an arc through a turn. I did notice a tendency to run a bit wide under power on corner exit. To alleviate that I just put light pressure on the bar so it doesn't run wide. | ||
| Philp |
Thanks Rogue. I could be wrong, but it seems most riders of "stature" find the behavior of the 1125R more tolerable. It's the lighter folks like myself who seem to struggle with the bike's disposition. This might make an interesting poll. | ||
| Clutchreaper |
I don't think Geoff May weighs much more than 150. Granted he raced the 1125RR, I wonder if he found there to be similar problems that they had to adjust for him? | ||
| Rogue_biker |
If he raced then you can bet those are custom springs and dampers for his weight. | ||
| Philp |
Update on my suspension: It was screwed up (thanks for the stern analysis Rogue_biker!). Having the forks flush with the trees worked great for me when proper preload was unattainable with the stock springs. But I think once I was achieving proper sag, the tube height caused that low speed "flopping" I described. I went back to the shop that installed the springs and after describing what I was experiencing, they insisted the tubes be adjusted back, then reduced some of the preload given the riding style I described, then reset the comp and rebound... what a difference. In fact, I was comfortable enough to track her last weekend (I posted it here today). This is a very ridable bike on the street and track as it is set up now. I'm still toying with selling her at the end of this season - but at least I can enjoy her for a couple more months before my next purchase. Thanks again to everyone for the advice. (Message edited by philp on October 07, 2011) (Message edited by philp on October 07, 2011) | ||
| Rogue_biker |
Great! Glad you got it rectified. |
