| Author | Message | ||
     Milezero5 |
I would have loved to see the britten v1000 race against these guys in a modern form, john and that company reminds me of ebr. Well look at it this way, in time when the 1190 reaches podium status, no one will be able to say they cheated due to be too light. | ||
| Crackhead |
Adding a $40K claim rule would be amazing. Michael Jordan would buy Suzuki's entire race bike fleet just to piss off Mr. Suzuki Actually, that is the perfect way to level the playing field. A slight twist where you don't get the custom ECU settings would still keep from buying your way to the top. I don't agree with the weight rule either. If the stock bike - street parts is lighter then the competitors, then the manufactures need to step up. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Why $40k? Just so the Buell qualifies? How about $15k...like most of these bikes cost on the street? Heck, you want to let in the "exotics"? Make it $20k. That will buy an 1198, a KTM, an Aprilia. | ||
| Court |
Try offering KTM $20,000 for the bike or the Fillmore ran this last weekend. Offer $40,000 for the Erik Buell Racing bike you better bring a helmet. Better yet . . . offer KTM $40,000 for JUST the electronics. Let me know if you need their mailing address. Hahahaha. . . you get the point. | ||
| Avc8130 |
I sorta get the point. I didn't realize how knowledgeable you were about KTM's electronics. Sport Rider has done product testing on commercially available traction control. Ducati sells traction control on $25k bikes. Erik Buell Racing could use/sell traction control if they wanted to. If that is the ONLY reason KTM finished ahead...it would seem like money well invested to me. "Electronics" are not an excuse. Josh Hayes runs with NO traction control. He seemed to do pretty well this weekend... | ||
| Avc8130 |
"ý11th and 10th first time out. Bike was very solid and reliable, but we waaay underestimated the difficulty of set up with the extra 25 lbs of weight strapped on. Today with all that weight and some chassis changes we made trying to compensate for it (which included running a soft rear tire), we destroyed the tire mid race, and Geoff had to slow way down. We'll try to get some more testing before Laguna." Wow, guess that "ability to put it wherever you want" isn't such an "advantage" afterall... | ||
| Dnlink |
Parity Sucks. life is not parity(fair) and neither is racing. Racing is about finding a way to be better than the next guy. Like it or not its about cubic dollars, speed cost money. How fast do you want to go? How much money you got? Yes there will be rules but I don't want to see Superbike turn in to Superstock. There is already a superstock class. if the front 4 or 5 bikes on the Superbike grid don't cost $125K to $150K I'll kiss my own ass. You think Yamaha and Suzuki are going to give them away for $40K....HA! Motorcycle racing in this country is not exactly robust and a claiming rule would probably kill it. Don't dumb down the competition just so your favorite can do better, they(Erik Buell Racing) will get better just give them some time. When the results improve the money will come. Besides who doesn't like rooting for the underdog. GO Erik Buell Racing!!!!! | ||
| Dnlink |
"Offer $40,000 for the Erik Buell Racing bike you better bring a helmet." Dammit Court I'm cleaning my drink off the computer screen!!!! | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Sport Rider has done product testing on commercially available traction control Production bike traction control is not up to par for world class racing applications. It costs alot more $$$ for electronic aides which are actually more than marketing hype. | ||
| Froggy |
Yea I guess so. They should of made each rim 10lbs heavier or used a 20lb tail light instead. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Josh Hayes runs with NO traction control. Ummm. How long has Josh Hayes been riding the Yamaha? Also, you might be noticing the Yosh bikes electronics might be getting the better of Josh and his right-hand traction control. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Either way...Josh Hayes is week in and week out one of the top 3 guys on the track...and he does it WITHOUT traction control. We can't sit around and whine because our boys didn't do better without an "aid" that isn't "necessary" anyways. ac | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Parity Sucks. Unless you like good motorcycle racing. | ||
| Court |
>>>.Dammit Court I'm cleaning my drink off the computer screen!!!! It's pretty much (the actual race bike had about a day of work put in it from street trim)accurate. Kinda cool really. I'm going through all my photos and it's kinda cool to see that Erik Buell Racing, LLC sticker, the tire size, the federal compliance language and the VIN on the sticker . . mounted on the Erik Buell Racing. While we are on this feigned "KTM vs. Erik Buell Racing" (which I think is a cool shoot out) I must tell you I was REALLY impressed with the riding of Mr. Fillmore. Go to the AMA stats and chart his lap times . . the guy is rock solid and consistent as he can be. Impressive. I want the races to be fair to all competitors and hope (I'm neither race fluent enough nor keen of mind enough) that folks making the rules are doing a good job. It is, to me, fun for racing to be fun again. There are some really nice and really talented young riders. | ||
| Avc8130 |
You certainly can't argue with EPA certs on the bike/VINs. Of course that doesn't mean as much as it sounds like it does. That bike can't be on the street legally. The exhaust and tuning are not EPA approved. All frames are street based...it's just that Suzuki/Yamaha don't bother stamping them before sending them off to racing. It is a good time in AMA. The top runners are very competitive and exciting to watch. The new guys are scrapping it out a tad in the mid pack. If KTM decides AMA is for them, next year could be amazing with Buell and KTM both in their 2nd year with "appropriate" bikes. ac | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
It is pretty fun but adding 25lbs to a bike to make it race ready is obscene. The day we see twins dominating Superbike you may be able to convince me otherwise. I dont recall that day ever happening, so why the penalty? | ||
| Court |
Was and could be again in 60 minutes. No other bike in the series could say the same. There are rumors that Suzuki got caught, or was turned in, for stamping those VIN's at Road America. I don't know the rules but I suspect they are supposed to be production frames. I've no clue what Suzuki does and the "got caught" story could be paddock bullshit . . for all I know you can stamp it after you win. The Erik Buell Racing is damn close to what you'd get if you bought one . . as a racer, you'll appreciate that. No way in hell you can get anything remotely like what Suzuki is racing. For about $50,000 you can have precisely what Geoff May is riding. That's cool in ANYBODY's book, that was the objective. The Erik Buell Racing bikes were pulled out of the first 40 built. Interesting that the Carbon Fiber bike at Mid-Ohio was different . . after the one from Road America was sold. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Court, Where can one find that the factory Suzuki's and Yamaha's are valued at? I hear a lot about how costly they are...but not a lot of documentation seems to exist. Buell is much more open about this stuff than Suzuki and Yamaha. I doubt Suzuki and Yamaha really have that much to hide, we just don't have "insiders" such as yourself and Steve posting on forums about the inner workings of factory Suzuki and Yamaha teams. ac | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Either way...Josh Hayes is week in and week out one of the top 3 guys on the track...and he does it WITHOUT traction control. We can't sit around and whine because our boys didn't do better without an "aid" that isn't "necessary" anyways. How many years has Yamaha and Hayes developed that R1? I believe this is the 3rd year of development on a factory team. Josh Hayes' traction control (or lack there of) is not representative of the majority of the competitive Superbikes and certainly not comparable to the E-B-R 1190. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Hmm...I guess not...even though they all get it done under the rules. Must not be much parity afterall. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Good thread about the Privateer vs. Factory racing. Maybe a little OT but I found it searching for something else. It deserves to be re-posted. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/158 664/446313.html | ||
| Anonymous |
I don't know who avc is, but he is not in the know of the reality of AMA racing. Or knows and is trolling. How can you remotely claim there was a $15,000 bike on the track? The KTM was a $100,000 plus IDM bike and had a 100,000 euro electronics system. Larry Pegram sold his 1098R's at the end of last year as what they really were, $150,000 F08's. No one fast runs stock traction control, nor do they run the aftermarket stuff you know about. Geoff knows what works and what doesn't from his Suzuki days. To actually make TC work you need the $50,000 plus stuff, and to be able to hire the people who know how to run it. Jordan is finally getting the handle on the expensive stuff and their finish shows it. So until Erik Buell Racing can afford these kind of dollars, you won't see TC on the 1190RS. Sorry we are small and poor. The 1190RS was the absolute lowest cost bike out there this past weekend. But also the closest to a street bike. People can lie otherwise, but there isn't anyone in the pits who doesn't know this is the truth. We didn't have enough time to develop the best location for the weight, due to budget and the fact we focused everything on making the best possible street bike ever. Now we will start to develop it to work under the AMA Superbike rules. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Trolling? LOL. I've been on this board for 3 years and an active poster. Never claimed to know squat about AMA Racing except what I have read here/magazines and seen in person/on TV. I didn't actually mean that $15k bikes were on the track. I meant that SUPPOSEDLY (GENERAL casual public perception) the bikes racing are based off the street bikes. Apparently that is a good bit looser than what the rules specifically list for each bike to be "race only". If that is the state of the "union" at AMA Racing, then it is lame. To hit you guys up with 25lbs extra at the last moment (so you had no time to test with it) while other guys are running around on $150k traction control systems is just poor taste. It's too bad Amsoil doesn't have the coin to buy you traction control so you could be in that top 5 Geoff was talking about in the pre-race interview! (Message edited by avc8130 on July 11, 2011) | ||
| Mickeyq |
Like I said when I started this thread, I think a "Race" exhaust/muffler encased with the weight is the perfect place for this BS penalty. Still think a bike which is a real street bike that anyone with the cash (how many times is tapping my 401k going through my mind!) can buy and own should NOT be required to pack weight. Can't touch a Yosh racebike, or Beemer, or R1, or even the Katoom for that kind of cash--that's for sure and even then you won't get their "top shelf" parts. I think last time a claiming rule was used was in MX @78 and George Roeder (hope that is correct) grabbed a true "Works" RC Honda and Honda was POd in a huge way. Still LOVE my 1125R, waiting for stator probs or not. It is the only bike I have ridden that compares to my first real "Superbike" ride; which was a Rickman Honda with an RC Engineering 1024 kit and a Supercharger, built by Mr. Colin Edwards Sr. Second gear 110mph just blipping it--never to be forgotten  | ||
| Jdugger |
There's two kinds of racers... Cheaters and Losers. | ||
| Trojan |
Weight to help create parity, okay, but when was the last time a 1200cc twin dominated in AMA SBK? Answer, never. So why does AMA Pro Racing impose a 10 LB penalty on them? The AMA chose the rules to try and please Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha and tempt them back into the fold after DMG took over and the Jap teams threatened to leave. Ducati took one look at the rules and waved goodbye, as they pretty much knew they couldn't win under those restrictions. The last time they got close to winning was when Neil Hodgson rode for them on the 999 and even then they were severely restricted compared to the IL4's. Claiming rules are all very well, but tend not to work because the factory teams pretty much always come to a 'behind closed doors' agreement with the guy trying to claim stuff. This happened back in the 'old days' of BSA/Triumph in the early '70's when John Cooper won at Ontario. His bike was chock full of factory 'special' parts, so when his bike was 'claimed' by an AMA privateer with a beef against Triumph they just took him aside and made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Needless to say he never got the bike he claimed. There are plenty of other examples of similar events and I'm sure we'll see the same in MotoGP under the new CRT rules (whatever they may turn out to be!). Regarding all the stuff about race electronics etc.......The rules allow expensive electronic aids such as traction control etc, so anyone racing at the top level simply has to have it or will be at a big disadvantage compared to the other teams. Complaining that the top teams are 'cheating' in order to justify not beating them is pointless. KTM know this and have come into AMA with as much ammunition as they can possibly carry (and even then I don't think it will be enough to make the RC8R a winner against the big 4 Jap manufacturers in Superbike). Erik Buell Racing may be on a tight budget and doing as much as they can with what they have, but they need to have access all the tools available if they want to run at the front like the rest of them. If that means having $100,000 electronics under the current rules then that is what they will need to have. It impresses us when they talk about running a street bike etc, but it means nothing to anyone just looking at results without any background knowledge. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Trojan, This: Erik Buell Racing may be on a tight budget and doing as much as they can with what they have, but they need to have access all the tools available if they want to run at the front like the rest of them. If that means having $100,000 electronics under the current rules then that is what they will need to have. It impresses us when they talk about running a street bike etc, but it means nothing to anyone just looking at results without any background knowledge. There is a fine line in the public. Racers and enthusiasts understand how amazing 10th might be. The general populace? There's a "podium" for a reason. All I have ever been trying to say was "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". Erik Buell Racing is probably VERY happy to have Amsoil. If Geoff can muster a few top-5s or even a podium, I hope the sponsorship dollars REALLY flow next season and they can get all the whiz-bang gadgets to compete with the factories and front-runners...or they can get Josh Hayes and pay salary instead of traction control. ac | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
To be honest, I dont think hiring Hayes would benefit ExBxR very much, as it'd be a bit different between the two bikes, he'd have to adapt. May is a skilled rider who knows the handling of the Buells. Saw several posts like this, not going to quote them all, but anyway "Production bike traction control is not up to par for world class racing applications." Pegram was running factory S1000RR TC this past weekend at the race, he still did quite well "To hit you guys up with 25lbs extra at the last moment" I wouldnt think that this would be the case, I was under the impression the minimum for the twins was in the rule book all along and that ExBxR wouldve been prepared to add weight to their bike due to its extreme light weight from the factory/shop. I enjoy this thread, its one of those great threads with a lot of opinions and it is just very entertaining. | ||
| Trojan |
Pegram was running factory S1000RR TC this past weekend at the race, he still did quite well It is pretty well known that the S1000R electronics are great for Superstock/production racing but not up to Superbike racing standards. Various teams have tried to run the stock BMW electronics in BSB and WSb and they haven't gone very well  Most end up switching the TC off completely because it restricts corner exit speed. BMW have insisted on producing their own 'in house' electronics package for their WSB effort and they have not been very succesful with that either so far! Almost every top level team in the world uses Magnetti Marelli Marvel electronics for their Superbike/MotoGP racers, and teams would be foolish to look elsewhere for an off the shelf package that a lot of race electronics engineers already understand and have experience of using. It is also cheaper than many people here seem to think  | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
WOW now that's what i am talking about. was just saying to dad yesterday about the paltry sample rates and correction rates and how that equates to lessor performance that possible. |
