| Author | Message | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
     Spuds |
For all you guys that have ridden both an early xb and an '08 1125r - tell me how the front brakes compare. I know this is an open ended request/topic, subject to all kinds of subjectivity. Holding all things constant, is the front brake setup/system on the 1125 way better/worse, or just slightly better/worse....? Is pulsing still an issue? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jdugger |
Are you asking us to compare the ZTL2 to the ZTL1? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Froggy |
The ZTL1 stops fine, the ZTL2 stops better. I love the ZTL2 so much I retrofitted one to my XB. If you plan on adding it to your XB, go with an aftermarket master cylinder (American Sport Bike sells them), it will provide better feel. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Dirty_john |
When the 1125R first came out I immediately ordered the 1125R master cyl and 8 piston caliper and fitted these to my 06 XB12R, the difference was immediate. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jdugger |
> The ZTL1 stops fine, the ZTL2 stops better. I would disagree. The only reason the ZTL1 was even close to sufficient was the XB wasn't all that fast to begin with. Repeatedly trying to haul down an 1125r for a tight corner with a ZTL1 would be asking for some trouble. I can't imagine trying to depend on the ZTL1 for any kind of sport riding. The ZTL2 is problematic enough in its own right, and by any measure vastly better than the ZTL1. Even Buell went to the ZTL2 for the XB12r in the last year or two of production. A wise move, IMHO. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| 1_mike |
Agree with Jdugger. As noted here somewhere...the battery in my CR died, so I had to take either the R1 or the XB12S. I took the XB to work this morning. The XB has the same HH pads in the caliper as my CR. The difference is large. If I drove it more, I'd hunt down the 8 piston caliper....which in my opinion...is just barely adequate. It's noticeably less in power thAn the brakes on my "old" (03) Yamaha R1...also with the same EBC, HH pads in it. Mike | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Spuds |
thanks for the responses so far.... ZTL1 / ZTL2.... on an 03 xb, there's the 6 piston caliper, right? is that what's called a ZTL1? on an 08 1125, there's an eight piston rig...the ZTL2 I assume? Or is there a plain old fashioned ZTL somewhere in all this? The reason for my initial post is that I'm considering getting an '08 1125r, and was looking for some general front brake "feedback" from those with experience on both early xb's and 08 1125's. The journos typically bash all ZTL brake setups...has the 08 1125 ZTL setup come a long way since 2003's xb's? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Froggy |
Correct, not counting anything done with the race bikes, there is only ZTL1 and 2, with 6 and 8 pistons respectively. If you loved the stock XB brake, you will love the stock 1125 brake, it is an improvement. There is still more room for improvement if you desire using many new bits from Erik Buell Racing. The journos tend to bash the ZTL because it is the cool thing to do. If Honda did it, they would think it is the best thing to ever happen to motorcycles. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve_a |
The six-piston caliper doesn't have as firm a feel as the eight-piston caliper -- the six-piston feels mushy in comparison. The 8-piston caliper is a lot stiffer. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| D_adams |
The ZTL2 is plenty good for doing stoppies. Purely accidental on my part, but it saved my bacon last year. The XB12 I've been riding has the same brake, feels pretty much the same to me, although I much prefer the 1125 over the XB. There's something to be said for having 50% more hp available to use. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jdugger |
> The 8-piston caliper is a lot stiffer. Steve, Is there a way to harden the 8-piston ZTL2? I've always thought the lever on the ZTL2 was a bit mushy. I know now it's the caliper, not the MC that causes the issue. Because, I have an RCS19 on the race bike, and actually we use the Buell stock MC on our Honda CBR600 endurance bike. And, the frimness of feel from the Honda brake system with the Buell MC is vastly better than my Buell ZTL2 caliper driven by a Brembo RCS19. As an experiment, I put a dti on the caliper and it flexes quite a bit with lever pressure. I'd love a quick fix to stiffen the "clams" so it didn't wedge itself apart so badly... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
>>> I can't imagine trying to depend on the ZTL1 for any kind of sport riding. I hardly use the brake during my sport riding on public roads. Too tough for you to imagine though? Here we go again.  >>> I'd love a quick fix to stiffen the "clams" so it didn't wedge itself apart so badly... and again... wedge itself apart "so badly"? >>> As an experiment, I put a dti on the caliper and it flexes quite a bit with lever pressure. Would like to see the data on that. I do recall Steve saying something about the next gen caliper being as stiff as MotoGP calipers. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jdugger |
> Here we go again. You don't ride on the track. I've invited you out several times to see for yourself. You can't seriously consider any riding that doesn't heavily use the brakes sporting, do you? Skill on the brakes is a major component of sport riding, in particular on the track. Riding the "pace" and saying the brakes work great for it isn't much of a test. > Would like to see the data on that. Not hard to see at all. Grab that 1125 of yours, and modulate the brake nice and hard while watching the caliper closely. You can see it to a more dramatic degree on the ZTL1 on your Uly. If you want to do what I did, just put a DTI on both side of it. If the next gen caliper is as stiff as a MotoGP caliper, that's great, but what I'm talking about is what's on our bikes and available to us RIGHT NOW. You have access to the next gen stuff? Can I get one? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Chessm |
i currently have 2 bikes with ZTL1s and 1 with the ZTL2 in the garage i can lock up the front and do stoppies with the ZTL1 equipped bikes just fine. the ZTL2 is definitely stronger but i'd say they are very proportionate to the fact that the bike it's on also goes faster. and ive taken both types of brakes to the track and they worked perfectly fine at that venue. the ZTL1's are perfectly good brakes as long as you have good pads on there and you keep them bled properly. (Message edited by chessm on June 03, 2011) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Nillaice |
i still get some pulsing on my 1125R. the usual scotch brite treatment on the rotor does the trick for teh next few thousand miles or so i have only ridden my 1125 at a track, so i cannot compare them there, but the ZTL1 has never let me down on teh street | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
>>> You don't ride on the track. Oak Hill Raceway 28 Sep. 2003
Stock 1997 Buell Cyclone front brake. The ZTL-1 is a better brake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve_a |
The 8-piston caliper is much stiffer than the 6-piston. Nissin moto-GP calipers done for honda provided the target stiffness, and it was achieved both in FEA and in actual hardware, by measuring deflection versus pressure. ZTL3 design studies (never built because of the close) were about reducing weight and increasing cooling, not about increasing stiffness, as that wasn't an issue we saw from top-level racing or other testing. As for brake feel, the new disk mounting available from E*B*R reduces runout, which helps reduce lever travel. Brake feel is dependent on many factors, especially including pad properties. Buell went to a lot of trouble and expense to offer racing pads that work; not all aftermarket ones do. Also, if you're seeing extreme temperatures on a ZTL2 system (black disk, light brown heat marks high on the disk mounting tabs), your feel will deteriorate significantly. If so, you should look at the new parts that E*B*R is offering. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jdugger |
Steve, So, I think my rotors fit your description. They are black, they are deep gold around the edges, including the mounting tabs. And, I'm *already* using the Erik Buell Racing hardware! (it has helped tremendously.) I've tried both the Nissin and Veserah pads, and prefer the Nissin. So, given that, what would you say my next step is? Clearly, I'm getting a lot of heat into my ZTL2 system. Part of that is the hot summer here in Texas. Part of that is the nature of my home track, with 11 2nd gear corners, 6 of which are double apex entries after long straights. There's lots of hard braking there. Blake, Here's a short video of the deflection. You can see it with the naked eye, but the DTI measures it easily at about 5 thous per side. There's a direct correlation, no surprise really, with typical level pressure and deflection of the caliper. The caliper starts deflecting once you are into the "sponge" of the lever feel. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ratbuell |
Go for the 1190 fender with the ductwork. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ezblast |
From what I've read on the topic those ducts do a considerable amount of cooling, and the new disc probably contributes as well. EZ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avc8130 |
Cooling won't help caliper flex...go radial monobloc. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve_a |
All calipers flex. The ZTL2 caliper is designed to be as stiff as most, if not all, monoblocks. Monoblocks aren't inherently stiffer than bolt-together calipers -- they're just lighter for a given stiffness. The ZTL2 caliper achieves its stiffness by putting most of its material as far out toward the outside of the "C" section as possible -- in contrast to a lot of calipers, including monoblocks, that shrink-wrap the structure around the hydraulic parts, giving stiffness away to save weight. The original Buell design for the ZTL2 used 3 bolts, with the center one larger than the outside ones. It had a lot more area for airflow through the caliper. It also had a lot more hollowing out of the interior of the caliper as well -- something you can do with a bolt-together caliper, and almost impossible with a monoblock. Nissin "productionised" it, going to 4 equally sized bolts to hold it together, and filling in a lot of the interior for manufacturing ease. The result was a heavier caliper that blocked a lot of airflow -- but Erik was happy to get anyone who knew what they were doing to make calipers for the ZTL system, and we didn't complain too loudly. The ZTL3 racing caliper design exercises still used a bolt together design, because there was no way we could get Nissin to commit to a monoblock for a limited production caliper -- and once Buell closed, they stopped work on the project altogether. ZTL3 was all about getting air through the caliper to cool the pads (glove cooling, in NASCAR parlance), and about reducing weight. It was designed to be CNC-machined, and the structure was much optimized by later software than was available when ZTL2 was designed. The 1190RS brake uses every idea that was intended for that, but not pushed quite as far because of the use of the existing caliper castings. And it works superbly. Jdugger -- It sounds like your track is a bitch, perhaps worse than Road America. I'd run the 1190RS disk with slots instead of holes, and see about getting the scoop and matching caliper from Erik Buell Racing. Erik Buell Racing is also working on pads with even better high-temperature performance. I'd stay in touch with them with what Geoff is running. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jdugger |
> It sounds like your track is a bitch It's very braking oriented. And, it's really bumpy. Top speeds into 1, 3, 9 and 11 are both just over 100 for me, into 6 and 7 *well* over 100. The entries into 1 and 6 and 9 are *STEEP* downhill zones.  This is a video of a couple of guys that know how to ride getting around ECR. It picks up in Turn 6: > see about getting the scoop and matching caliper Somehow I knew this was going to be the answer. That's a very expensive piece, construction requiring having been stuck in the mill at E.B.R for a bit, plus specialty Ti pistons and different seals. I'll inquire, but I'm more than scared already, knowing what goes into a "ZTL 2.5". | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jdugger |
Here's a close up of the rotor:  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve_a |
I've seen worse, but you're getting hot. The new rotor with grooves will run a little cooler and is a lot more stable, so I'd definitely get it. If you were running the anti-rattle spring clips that hold the pads in place, don't; you'll get less drag and a little more air without them. (It' a bitch to get the wheel in without the clips; Erik Buell Racing may still have some of the aluminum pins we made up to hold the pads in place while wiggling the wheel in place.) And just the 1190RS scoop would be useful without the fully modified caliper. Good luck! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aj2010 |
I would be interested in knowing what mods they do to the ZTL2 caliper castings to make it both lighter and run a bit cooler. Anyone got any pictures? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jdugger |
Steve, Thanks. Note into E.B.R. for the rotor and cooling scoop. I have an extra ZTL that I keep freshly rebuilt so I can swap calipers quickly when they gum up from dust, and I inquired about sending that in for a ZTL2.5 build. That picture above is actually a practice wheel. The cast Mg race wheel can look somewhat worse after a summer race, though not dramatically so. And, my bike this year is faster, as E.B.R. built it to DSB/CMRA superstock spec. The tip about the clips is something I'd not thought of. It's an easy experiment, so I'll give it a shot. And, cheap, too! I like those ideas. I don't think it will make the wheel swap any more difficult because I use the long front brake line, so I can just finger the pads from the sides of the caliper apart while I slide the caliper on the loose wheel. (Or, so I think...) Aj, To my knowledge, they stick the caliper in the mill and remove the material down to about the first dust seal. The pistons are replaced with a Ti piston, and there's a higher quality single dust seal for each piston in the caliper. So, there's a lot more space in the clam-shell for cooling air flow, and the caliper itself is lighter from simply having had a decent bit of material removed. If you drop your caliper and split it for service, this description will make a lot of sense. If you haven't rebuilt your caliper in a while, I actually quite recommend it. A freshly serviced caliper performs a lot better! E.B.R., Al at American Sport Bike and your dealer all sell something called a seals and pistons kit for the ZTL2. It's only about $75-$80, and worth every penny. I do mine around every 3-4 sets of pads, or when the pistons get a bit sticky. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Spuds |
Thanks all for the info/responses. It had been a couple of years since I had an opportunity to ride an R/CR...had a "brand new" CR out for a spin a couple of summers ago...just couldn't recall much about the front brake. Had an opportunity to ride an 1125R with about 3,000 miles on it the other night....the front brake was just fine....very powerful, no pulsing or shuddering...so....based on a 3,000 mile old front brake on a certain 1125r, I concluded right away that it worked much better than my 2003 xb's front brake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hughlysses |
I wonder if there's any advantage to doing a radial-mount ZTL caliper. ZTL4? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Radial mounts only really benefit lateral tolerance stackup (spacers, axle, wheel, brake disk mounting, caliper mounting), which the ZTL type of wheel largely avoids. |
